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Renault Bets on Electric Vehicles

Continued from page 1

By Peter Fairley

Thursday, October 09, 2008

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Renault bets that ultimately, the relative simplicity of battery EVs should make them cheaper than plug-in hybrids such as General Motors' Chevy Volt, a vehicle that GM plans to launch in 2010 that will couple a commuter-range battery that can be charged overnight with a gasoline engine-generator to sustain the vehicle on longer trips. "Putting two engines in a car is . . . more complicated, and it's more expensive," says Yoccoz. "Even including infrastructure costs, the electric vehicle is still a better proposition from an economical point of view."

But the downside to Renault's plan is, of course, vehicle range. "We're not talking about holidays," acknowledges Yoccoz. Frank Weber, GM's global vehicle line executive for the Chevy Volt--one of the few full hybrids on display in Paris--calls that a trap: "You don't want to be in exactly this corner where you say, 'Here's this purpose-built little car.'"

Weber predicts that while most drivers don't go very far on a typical day, they will still expect more from a car. He says that EV commuter cars with limited range will remain a niche market, and therefore will never reach the scale needed to bring down costs--especially important when it comes to still-pricey lithium-ion batteries. "Electric vehicles are not a good choice," says Weber.

Yoccoz says that's precisely why automakers that are talking up EVs, such as Renault, Mitsubishi, and Mercedes, are also working to catalyze the installation of charging stations. Renault is working with Project Better Place, based in Palo Alto, CA, to install charging stations in Denmark and Israel, where the company will market its first EVs, starting with the Kangoo and an EV version of an as yet unreleased sedan called the Fluence, targeted at the Israeli market. Daimler, meanwhile, established a partnership with German utility RWE last month to install 500 EV charging points in Berlin, where the carmaker will deploy more than 100 of its EV Smart Fortwos. And this week, Paris said that it would make 4,000 EVs available on its streets in 2010 through an automobile version of Velib, its popular bike-rental program.

Helping to accelerate the development of that charging infrastructure and pushing governments to reward development of ultraclean vehicles is what Yoccoz calls his second and third jobs. "With our usual products, the main job is to find the customers, define what their needs are, and then find a product for their needs," he says. "What we have to do on top of that for the electric vehicle is really redefine a business model."

Comments

  • Prius does not run on electricity
    A Toyota Prius, like most "non-plug-in" hybrids does not run on electricity any more than a conventional car engine is driven by a flywheel. It runs on gasoline and gasoline alone. For this, it is indeed obsolete.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    Roy82
    10/09/2008
    Posts:1
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  • Renault Is Right
    We don't need no stinking hybrids. Pure electric vehicles are the way to go. Cities around the world should immediately embark on a program to install charging stations all over the place. They can start with parking meters and parking garages. They should think of it as a business, an opportunity to make a profit. It's a win-win situation.

    Better yet, cities should buy whole fleets of small electric cars, park them everywhere and offer them as a utility service. City dwellers could use subscription or prepaid cards to unlock the nearest available EV and use it for personal transportation. This would encourage carpooling too.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    Mapou
    10/09/2008
    Posts:26
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    • Re: Renault Is Right
      Pure electric makes sense becasue there are less parts to break, parts more standardized and maintenance costs will be cheaper. If they can engineer it so the most basic back-yard mechanic can work on it, then they'll get my business. I hate greasy cars to work on.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      mkogrady
      10/09/2008
      Posts:168
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      • Re: Renault Is Right
        I love that idea, but the car manufacturers make a good income stream on parts, and "support" their dealerships by ensuring that these vehicles need to go back to the dealership for service via the fine print in their warranties. The whole auto industry is one built on both Planned and Perceived Obsolescence, which is another green issue. So I doubt you and I will see this ever come to pass.
        Rate this comment: 12345

        bj
        01/13/2009
        Posts:36
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        3/5
  • >>> yes, Renault is right, but 100% electric cars needs very long duration batteries >>>
    yes, Renault is right, but 100% electric cars will NEVER succeed until VERY LONG duration batteries will be available or MY idea of a (standardized) "cellphoneCAR" will be adopted:

    http://www.gaetanomarano.it/articles/033cellphoneCAR.html

    it's very sad that I haven't the funds to do (at least) some basic researches about my Energy and Space ideas! :(
    Rate this comment: 12345

    Gaetano Mara...
    10/09/2008
    Posts:92
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    • Re: >>> yes, Renault is right, but 100% electric cars needs very long duration batteries >>>
      We don't need long duration batteries in the city. 40-50 miles range is good enough. Besides, if a city is wise enough to provide a fleet of electric cars for its citizens to use, then it's just a matter of parking the car you're driving when its batteries are low and hop into another fully charged car that is parked nearby. The cities should provide plenty of charging stations. Indeed, the cars and the charging stations should be designed in such a way that simply parking the car in a designated area would trigger a mechanism that automatically plugs it into a charger.

      Come to think of it, even long distance driving could use the same approach. It's kind of like the days when the horse was the primary transportation system. Long distance messengers and transportation companies (Wells Fargo comes to mind) used horse change stations to get fresh horses on the way. Until battery technology improves to the point where they can be charged instantly, this is a viable compromise, in my opinion.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      Mapou
      10/09/2008
      Posts:26
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      3/5
      • Re: swap the batteries
        You don't need to hop cars. You could swap out your low batteries for charged batteries at charging stations. Instead of gas stations, we would have battery swap stations.

        If we had a standardized system in place, the swap could be done in less than 5 minutes.

        PS - ignore this Gaetano dude, he always writes about "his" ideas - every good idea in the world is "his", and everyone else is just out there stealing "his" ideas. muhahahahaa...
        Rate this comment: 12345

        gabrielg01
        10/09/2008
        Posts:361
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        • Re: swap the batteries
          You got an excellent point about swapping the batteries. The problem is that it requires a more complex infrastructure (employees, battery storage areas, etc.) The advantage is that it is a better solution if you want to own your own vehicle and don't want to swap.

          Unattended charging stations installed all over the place and the use of public vehicles would be a simpler and more economical solution in my opinion, at least for cities, if only because it will alleviate congestion by eliminating the need for so many cars. Most vehicles are idle most of the time anyway.

          Having said that, I think that both ideas should be carefully studied for advantages and disavantages.
          Rate this comment: 12345

          Mapou
          10/10/2008
          Posts:26
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          • Re: swap the batteries
            .

            yes, swap batteries requires complex infrastructures, but, until we'll have (maybe, in the next 10-15 years) lighter, cheaper, powerful, and VERY FAST charging batteries, the battery swap system is the ONLY way to allow the electric cars to perform very long (gasoline-cars-like) trips!

            low autonomy electric cars will never succeed not even if they'll cost less than a gasoline-only-car, that since many people can't buy, manage, parking, etc. a second car!

            that's why all peoples and families need SIGLE electric cars able to do ALL the things of today's cars

            .
            Rate this comment: 12345

            Gaetano Mara...
            10/10/2008
            Posts:92
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          • Re: swap the batteries
            I keep wondering why no one mentions the Think City. Much longer range on a charge, and a battery lease program as part of the package. The car is recyclable, the plant is carbon neutral, what's not to like?
            http://www.think.no/
            Rate this comment: 12345

            bj
            01/13/2009
            Posts:36
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        • Re: swap the batteries
          .

          you just repeat a description of MY "swappable batteries" idea...

          and, about MY ideas, I always do a search BEFORE writing an article on my website (and dozens posts on several forums and blogs) about MY new ideas!

          .
          Rate this comment: 12345

          Gaetano Mara...
          10/10/2008
          Posts:92
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      • Re: >>> yes, Renault is right, but 100% electric cars needs very long duration batteries >>>
        It could be feasible to have paid chargers at the workplace, at malls and other places, so when you park for an extended period and you want to have a full charge for an extra trip that day, just swipe your credit card and recharge. This would allow even more people to rely on fully electric vehicles.
        Rate this comment: 12345

        MakeSense
        10/11/2008
        Posts:89
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    • Re: >>> yes, Renault is right, but 100% electric cars needs very long duration batteries >>>
      I like your thought process with the swapable battery packs just like towmotors in factories. The swaping could be tricky without a robot arm due to the fact that even the Prius battery pack weighs in at about 300 lbs.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      KenCAD
      10/17/2008
      Posts:1
  • Supplement All-Electric with I.C. Generator
    I could see myself in one of these all-electric vehicles - a 160 to 200 km range would be plenty for the average daily trips.

    I could also see myself being able to "unplug" the rear bumper (say with the assistance of couple of fold-down legs/rollers), and "plug in" another unit that contains a small internal combustion generator to supply additional power to recharge the batteries and so extend the range (say 500-1000 km) for those occasional long trip requirements.  It would be like turning the hatchback design into a sedan.

    The generator would be optimised to operate at a peak efficiencies for generating the required charging power, it could be diesel as it provides better options for supporting alternative renewable fuel sources, and could be quickly and easily refueled to provide additional range.
    It would give us the best of both worlds !

    The standard rear bumper could then be reattached to reduce vehicle weight for normal short range driving.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    amgillard
    10/09/2008
    Posts:9
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    • Re: Supplement All-Electric with I.C. Generator
      Why not extend your concept to allow add-on units that provide range extension via an efficient ICE, as you noted, or a fuel cell generator (if FCs ever make it), or more batteries or via an inductively coupled power unit that draws power from a wire buried in high charging lanes. These units could be leased when required, e.g., for weekend trips.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      NorthernPike...
      10/09/2008
      Posts:11
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      • Re: Supplement All-Electric with I.C. Generator
        .

        a second (gasoline powered) generator or (worse) a very expensive fuel cells generator add too much costs to the (already too expensive) electric cars while they need to cost LESS than a gasoline-only or hybrid car if we want the electric cars market to succeed soon

        .
        Rate this comment: 12345

        Gaetano Mara...
        10/09/2008
        Posts:92
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        2/5
      • Re: Supplement All-Electric with I.C. Generator
        .

        the "inductively coupled power unit that draws power from a wire buried in high charging lanes" is a good idea but I doubt it could be enough efficient to avoid the leak of great part of the energy

        .
        Rate this comment: 12345

        Gaetano Mara...
        10/10/2008
        Posts:92
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  • Dual Concept.
    Lets take these ideas a little further.
    Add retractable wings to the car, so that for long trips it can fly.  Build take off lanes with takeoff ramps from highways. For both take off and landing.  Eliminate the need for driving as we know it for long trips.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    kbillet
    10/09/2008
    Posts:3
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  • Who Killed The Electric Car
    Wasn't that just a really interesting movie. I could really do with one.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    schkayalogy
    10/10/2008
    Posts:1
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  • rent a car.
    If you only need a car with long distance capabilities 3~4 time a year for vactions etc. Just rent a one during those times.  The saving from buying and operating an EV the rest of the time will pay for renting a bigger touring car.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    ryuuguu
    10/11/2008
    Posts:13
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  • Hybrids are an indispensable stepping stone to EV's.
    Hybrids of course will likely die out eventually, like everything else. What people fail to grasp is that hybrids are extremely important as a bridge technology. There is no way anyone today can afford to put enough of the right kind of batteries in a car to give it anywhere near acceptable range and lifespan that people expect from mainstream practical transportation. Good batteries are simply too expensive.

    Hybrids allow the auto industry to install much less battery, yet still significantly improve efficiency in affordable real world cars, now. (It also gets them working on electric drive motors and power electronics on a significant scale, which they've NEVER done before.) This means that the battery industry can slowly ramp up production and quality, while gradually bringing cost down, way down. At that point - and <i>only<i> at that point - will pure battery electric car  start to make sense for the mass market.

    Without hybrids, and lots of them, there basically is no industrial bridge to the massive numbers of large, good, cheap batteries we'll need.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    ArtInvent
    10/13/2008
    Posts:24
    Avg Rating:
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    • Re: Hybrids are an indispensable stepping stone to EV's.
      Excellent point. These technologies do need time to mature. How else can we get there, if we do not support them in their infancy?

      I hate people who say that hybrids are not worth it, because they are "too expensive and do not break even in gas savings"...It's not about gas savings. It's about supporting a technology that will eventually get us off oil.

      Saying that hybrids are too expensive, is like saying that education is too expensive. How expensive is ignorance?...
      Rate this comment: 12345

      gabrielg01
      10/13/2008
      Posts:361
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    • Re: Hybrids are an indispensable stepping stone to EV's.
      I concur with your premise that hybrids are a bridge. I would like to know though why "good batteries are too expensive". Is it because of component  cost, industry infancy  or what? To what do you attribute " too expensive"?
      Rate this comment: 12345

      dollardragon
      10/17/2008
      Posts:3
      Avg Rating:
      1/5
  • Bill Clinton was right
    Don't fear the Kyoto CO2 treaty, technology will open new opportunities.  This 'opportunity' should have transformed industry in the old USA making it a global leader green technology.  Instead, the Bush admin, the closed minded Echo Lobbyest and the fossil fuel industry have pump fear along will untold destruction to the planet and economies.
         France with it 80% nuclear power will easily transition into a productive low carbon economy.  Their reactors can run at capacity through the off peek hour charging charging cars and other items.  No fuss, no smog and the fuel is recyclable. 
         The 'W' and his minions need to step aside and let the fossil fuel lobby painfully die.  The tree huggers will have to finally understand that nuclear power is a friend and Detroit executives have to build EVs despite what Exxon and BP dictate.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    bartosis
    10/24/2008
    Posts:1
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    1/5
  • most seductive element
    For now, the most seductive element of electric cars is their per-mile energy cost, just one-sixth of the gasoline equivalent, which somewhat offsets the high price and lack of convenience like car parts. But electric vehicles’ range is on average still less than half of today’s conventional standard, and their per-mile costs must rise. Electric cars may be the future, but there are no free rides.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    MickeyFouse
    01/27/2009
    Posts:47
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