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Tax Credits for Plug-In Hybrids?

Continued from page 1

By Kevin Bullis

Thursday, March 01, 2007
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Deron Lovaas, who heads the vehicle campaign at the National Resources Defense Council, says that several such tax-incentive bills will likely be submitted this year. "There are sure to be others, because there's a lot of enthusiasm about this in D.C. right now," he says.

Lovaas says that tax credits could have a significant impact on plug-in hybrid sales. He cites the success of tax credits for conventional hybrids, whose sales have doubled every year since 2001. (See a summary of current tax credits here.)

Automakers have recently expressed increased interest in developing plug-in hybrids. Late last year, General Motors (GM) announced an upcoming plug-in version of its Saturn Vue. (See "GM's Plug-In Hybrid.") A123 Systems announced an agreement with GM to help develop a prototype battery pack for the Vue. The packs are scheduled to be ready for testing in vehicles by the end of the year. In January, GM also revealed its Volt concept car. The vehicle takes plug-in hybrids a step further by using an all-electric drive train. The battery pack can be recharged by an onboard gas-powered generator or by plugging it into the wall. (See "Powering GM's Electric Vehicles.")

A study released last week suggests that over time, plug-in hybrids could cut overall vehicle emissions of carbon dioxide in half, while saving owners about $450 a year in fuel costs. According to a press release announcing the study, which was done by the National Renewable Energy Laboratory, in Golden, CO, and the utility company Xcel Energy, based in Minneapolis, although plug-in hybrids would draw power from the electricity grid, they would not necessarily increase the need for electrical infrastructure. That's because they could be recharged at night when much of the capacity of power plants isn't being used. Another study, by the Pacific Northwest National Laboratory, also suggests that plug-in hybrids could be charged using existing power plants, at least in most of the country. (See "How Plug-In Hybrids Will Save the Grid.")

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Comments
  • 150 Miles Per Gallon
    It is completely ridiculous to describe the fuel economy of a plug-in in this fashion.  How many miles does it get per pound of coal/gallon of oil/cubic foot of natural gas?

    If hybrid cars get twice the mileage of regular cars, does that mean their overall efficiency is in the 30% range?  If so, then it's about the same efficiency as converting coal to electricity and transmitting it to the charging station.  Take 10% off for each of charging station losses, battery losses, and maybe you include electric motor losses.

    Does this really end up being a better solution?
    Rate this comment: 12345

    MITBeta
    03/01/2007
    Posts:29
    Avg Rating:
    4/5
    • Re: 150 Miles Per Gallon
      You can't be serious.

      If you get 150mpg from a PHEV, then what does it mean?.  With a properly outfitted PHEV, the 1st 40 miles/day or so miles are all-electric.  That means over 50% of all drivers don't buy gasoline for their average daily driving needs. 

      So analyze the grid:  50% Coal(with carbon sequestration on the horizon), 20% Natgas, 20% Nuke and 10% Wind-roughly.  These plants operate much cleaner than autos so if you can't find progress here, then you need to do some research.

      Further DOE analysis has shown that 84% of the US automobile fleet(If it morphed into PHEV's overnight) could be powered by the existing power grid and structure since these cars will, for the most part, be charged at night on off peak power.  I just don't have time to find that link but if you search for it, it's out there.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      rick2653
      03/01/2007
      Posts:6
      Avg Rating:
      5/5
    • Re: 150 Miles Per Gallon
      Since the majority of Americans get their electricity from coal fired plants, plug in hybrids are going to increase the emission of carbon dioxide.  This is really a dumb idea, almost as dumb as sequestering carbon dioxide for some future generation to manage. 
      Rate this comment: 12345

      lowilliams
      03/01/2007
      Posts:17
      Avg Rating:
      3/5
      • Re: 150 Miles Per Gallon
        This is a bridge to all-electric vehicles.  There is no jump straight to H2 Vehicles unless you want to pay $600,000 for a Fuel Cell car and $7/gallon equivalent for H2 fuel(the only way you get that is with steam reforming natgas for the H2, otherwise it's higher).  They are 20 years out, if ever.

        I simply can't believe what I'm reading here on an MIT board????????????????  I suppose we should fiddle while Rome burns?

        Look again at the Phoenix and it's AltairNano batery.  I'll post the info again:

        1) Top speed of the truck: 95mph all electric
        2) Range: 135 miles all electric
        3) Recharge time: 10 minutes with 440 electric
        4) 12 year lifetime. 15,000 in house labtest cycles

        ============

        This claim would encompass the driving needs of at least 80% of all automibile drivers in the US. Maybe the world.

        Since:
        50% of all drivers drive <40 miles/day.
        80% of all drivers drive <60 miles/day.

        That takes a lot of Internal Combustion Engines off the road.  And that is progress.

        Second point.  MIT proposes Ethanol from Garbage which they claim can be produced fo $.05-.95/gallon.  Search this site for "Etahnol from Trash".  They further claim that the US generates enough trash to replace 25% of the gasoline we currently consume.  Think about that.  With a combo of PHEV's and Ethanol from Trash this country could eliminate 90%+ of it's oil imports, dramatically clean up the air, eliminate landfills and risk to water tables, etc,etc and set the economy on an global economic boom like we haven't seen since the '90's.
        Rate this comment: 12345

        rick2653
        03/01/2007
        Posts:6
        Avg Rating:
        5/5
        • Re: 150 Miles Per Gallon
          ANOTHER ASPECT - THE US MOTOR INDUSTRY IS DYING ON IT'S FEET AND HERE IS A WAY FOR THEM TO REINVENT THEMSELVES AND GET IN AT THE BOTTOM -
          GO TO IT GUYS - IF YOU DONT DO IT OTHERS WILL - AND YOU KNOW THEY MAKE GREAT PRODUCTS !!
          DONT ALLOW BIG OIL TO SQUASH THE NEW IDEAS - CAPITALISM ISNT ALWAYS THE BEST WAY - MAYBE WE NEED A MOTOR INDUSTRY CZAR AT THIS POINT (:>) ?
           
          Rate this comment: 12345

          VCRAGAIN
          03/03/2007
          Posts:35
          Avg Rating:
          4/5
          • Re: 150 Miles Per Gallon
            Maybe a better way to estimate the real cost of energy usage would be to determine the average expected power draw (in kWH) by the battery-charging process over an average night.

            I think electricity is about .10 / kWH in most markets (on average), so if you can find the overnight power draw for a charging cycle, you could reasonable figure the expected costs for consumers.
            Rate this comment: 12345

            esteeze
            03/07/2007
            Posts:1
        • agreed with rick
          Agreed with rick... we need to be pursuing many options.  Hybrids may not be the answer but in the pursuit of them, what else may come? 

          Anyways, if an 'immediate' goal is to reduce oil imports, hybrids can help.  Yes, the energy is coming from the grid instead, but America has vast coal reserves.  It's easier to reduce pollutants at the factory level than at each car on the road.  We can deal with replacing coal after we deal with reducing oil imports... one thing at a time.
          Rate this comment: 12345

          rollsplit
          03/08/2007
          Posts:5
          Avg Rating:
          2/5
      • Re: 150 Miles Per Gallon
        We might be at the start of safer, cheaper non-carbon nuclear power.  Right now, even getting 100% of our electricity from nuclear, it would not change the release of carbon in transportation.

        If we had plug in hybrids, reducing carbon release from electricity production on the grid would in turn save it in transportation as well.  This would be a good step forward.
        Rate this comment: 12345

        GaryB
        04/02/2007
        Posts:64
        Avg Rating:
        4/5
      • Re: 150 Miles Per Gallon
        Electric consumers can choose who they purchase their electricity from.  It still comes accross the same transmission lines but  they pay rates of geothermal companies or coal plants if they choose.  Also exhaust is concentrated at plant which will be easier to manage instead of every car tailpipe.  Don't go with the naysayers or they will be giving you gas powered blenders and hair dryers when oil prices fall.
        Rate this comment: 12345

        westernmine
        12/12/2007
        Posts:2
    • Re: 150 Miles Per Gallon
      An easier way would be to use non-petroleum fuels directly in the vehicle to generate electricity as needed. Internal combustion engines require some mixture of highly refined petroleum products in the fuel. With the alternative engine below, we could use kerosene and furnace oil until we produce enough biofuels to replace them. Biofuels work best in external combustion, forced-air burners, which are low in pollution and what little they make is easy to control. The burner makes steam to drive an engine/alternator to keep the batteries charged. The vehicle could still be plugged in, but production of a steam-electric hybrid would start to wean us off oil.  The vehicle could use any liquid or gaseous fuel ethanol, methane, propane, liquified natural gas, kerosene, furnace oil, syngas, liquified coal or even hydrogen whenever it becomes practical. See the post on -Automotive.com - or - e-mail -beesidemeusa@yahoo.co.uk - for more about this idea.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      beesidemeusa
      03/02/2007
      Posts:4
  • What about Phoenix?
    If you zoom that picture out, there's a Phoenix SUT sitting right beside it.  Why's that important?   It's running on a "NanoSafe"  Lithium Titanate battery produced by Altairnanotechnologies in which they claim and have been demonstrating:

    1) Top speed of the truck: 95mph all electric
    2) Range: 135 miles all electric
    3) Recharge time: 10 minutes with 440 electric
    4) 12 year lifetime. 15,000 in house labtest cycles

    ============

    This claim would encompass the driving needs of at least 80% of all automibile drivers in the US. Maybe the world.

    Since:
    50% of all drivers drive <40 miles/day.
    80% of all drivers drive <60 miles/day.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    rick2653
    03/01/2007
    Posts:6
    Avg Rating:
    5/5
  • This is stupid
      I have to question the sanity of anyone who claims that tax credits are needed for a technology that nearly everyone that I know would jump at in a second. This simply represents another example of people wanting to "do something" regardless of whether it makes any sense, which this clearly doesn't.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    theBike45
    03/01/2007
    Posts:15
    Avg Rating:
    3/5
    • Re: This is stupid
      I think the gov't subsidies are intended to jumpstart the technology, which is in fact a good idea for the sane and insane alike. As we all know, new technologies are expensive until the volume of sales brings the price down. Subsidies get this ball rolling quicker.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      tla723
      03/05/2007
      Posts:20
      Avg Rating:
      3/5
  • Back of Napkin...
    $10,000 incremental cost for the plug-in.
    $4200 tax credit--maybe going to $6000, as a SWAG.
    $450/year fuel savings.

    So, $4000 incremental cost after tax credit / $450 = 8.9 year amortization period.

    Median age of passenger cars is now 9.2 years, so this would be getting close.  I wonder how much battery life will affect resale?  (A lot, I'd guess.)

    If you can get the pre-tax-credit incrmental cost down by 25-30%, looks like you've got a clear winner, as long as the tax credits hold up.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    theradicalmo...
    03/01/2007
    Posts:13
    Avg Rating:
    4/5
  • The logic is in the costs.
    The logic is in the costs.

    To travel 100 miles in a current car would take 4 gallons and cost $10.00 (approximately)
    An electric vehicle would need about 21 kwh to travel this distance.
    At 50% efficiency you would need to purchase 42 kwh which (at 12 ¢/kwh) would cost $5.04 or half of what the gasoline costs.

    So a plug in vehicle costs half as much and has the added benefit that the source of this energy can be much cleaner, does not depend on unstable world regions, and is not about to run out.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    jazambra
    03/01/2007
    Posts:3
    Avg Rating:
    4/5
  • For sale: all-electric plug-in
    Want one? Over 200 have already been sold to high pofile celbrities. For the story behind this fantastic breakthrough, go to bobkronish.blogspot.com.
    In the "Past Posting" column on the right, click on "Ethanol or Hybrids? - the Real Story, Part IV."
    Contact: bobkro@hotmail.com
    Rate this comment: 12345

    bobkro
    03/01/2007
    Posts:1
  • wind powers 100% of these miltary bases

    <a href="http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/02/us_air_force_pl.html">scroll down the page for details</a>

    "Dyess AFB in Texas, Fairchild AFB in Washington, and Minot AFB in North Dakota achieve nearly 100% of their electrical energy requirements from wind energy systems located near their installations."

    So the next step is get more energy from infinite sources like wind. Then the plug in is the way to go.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    dotcommodity
    03/02/2007
    Posts:6
  • like rick, I am surprised to find such
    astoundingly unimaginative comments on this MIT board.

    Heres Thomas Edison on energy:

    "You see, we should utilize natural forces and thus get all of our power. Sunshine is a form of energy, and the winds and the tides are manifestations of energy.

    We burn up wood and coal, as renters burn up the front fence for fuel. We live like squatters, not as if we owned the property."

    We need to stop thinking like "squatters, not as if we owned the property"

    And quickly: because we have about 10 years.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    dotcommodity
    03/02/2007
    Posts:6
  • Tax Credits versus Increased Gas Taxes
    The article suggests that tax credits motivate hybrid purchases, but other recent commentary suggests the purchase of hybrids is more closely correlated with the price of gas. Certainly any current tax credits should be applied to plug-in hybrids, but to create an actionable policy to move people towards hybrids and all-electric vehicles we really need an unbiased statistical study of hybrid purchases to determine whether tax credits or gas prices are more influential.

    www.alternativee.org
    Rate this comment: 12345

    alternativee...
    03/02/2007
    Posts:9
    Avg Rating:
    4/5
    • Re: Tax Credits versus Increased Gas Taxes
      Or maybe we should just assume that fundamental economics are at work. With the exception of a few idealists who will go out of their way to live "green", people are generally going to follow the path of best economics. Which is to say, the market is almost certainly driven by all financial contributors combined.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      tla723
      03/05/2007
      Posts:20
      Avg Rating:
      3/5
      • Re: Tax Credits versus Increased Gas Taxes
        That's generally true, but there is a known economic blind spot among "the public". People are loath to pay up front, even when there is a good pay off over time. Given the choice, they will usually buy the cheaper, less durable product that costs more in the long run. Compact fluorescent lightbulbs are a good example. Tax policy can help get people over the hurdle.
        Rate this comment: 12345

        wmerck
        03/05/2007
        Posts:5
        • Re: Tax Credits versus Increased Gas Taxes
          I wouldn't underestimate the influence of a high MPG rating in todays world, and I certainly wouldn't call it an economic blind spot. My response was simply to point out that we shouldn't waste any more time trying to identify something that is already obvious. High gas prices and tax credits drive sales of hybrid cars. And environmental issues of course.
          Rate this comment: 12345

          tla723
          03/07/2007
          Posts:20
          Avg Rating:
          3/5
  • 150 miles/gallon?
    Go to Tesla Motors.com and see the electric that goes 250 miles on a charge, 0-60 in 4 sec. and at about a penny a mile to operate.  By the way, the polution caused by off-hour charging is much easier to control at centralized power plants than millions of stinky exhaust pipes running around the streets of America. The stats - about 90% of daily trips are to and from work with a little shopping or dinning.  Why not do it without driving those bloated bolt buckets called SUV's  They killed the electric car once before, but this time, it is going to be a success!
    Rate this comment: 12345

    gwf_fly
    03/02/2007
    Posts:9
    Avg Rating:
    5/5
  • More possibilities..?
    It seems to me by changing to an engine that has the possibility of running from coal, renewables, natural gas and other possible fountains, we're giving ourselves options and diversifying those options.  This can definitely help with our dependence on foreign oil and hopefully trigger r&d in technologies across the board.  I can't see why anyone would be wholeheartedly against it, unless they work in the oil industry.  

    I'm curious about a few things.  When people say that electric cars are going to be bigger pollutants because of the plants that are burning tons of coal, I have to wonder how much energy is wasted in transporting fuel to gas stations that is done primarily with trucks.  How much oil does that use per year?  How much electricity is needed to power the pumps at gas stations?  Does anyone know these statistics.  They obviously wouldn't factor in as greatly unless we moved to purely electric cars, but I'm curious.  

    While that seems like a pipe dream, or at least a far, far off reality, I think the possibility of a trash based ethanol is pretty amazing for the obvious reasons. 

    I also have a question about battery regeneration in electric cars.  It seems to me, that if you used not only the braking system to recharge the battery, but also the wind power from the car's movement and kinetic power from the rotation of  the tires, you should be able to sustain much longer distances.  I'm by no means a physics major, but these in conjunction seem like they'd provide a lot of energy considering that an electric engine powers off when it's not in use. 
    Does anyone know if a car like this?  Is it feasible?  How much battery regeneration would take place in a car like this?  Sorry if it's a dumb question, but like I said my physics knowledge is pretty abysmal :0)
    Rate this comment: 12345

    ferrerister
    03/02/2007
    Posts:2
    Avg Rating:
    1/5
    • Re: More possibilities..?
      You have just invented a perpetual motion machine.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      enoch
      03/03/2007
      Posts:4
      Avg Rating:
      5/5
      • Alternatively, how about Solar recharging stations?
        Imagine that your biodiesel and switchgrass gas stations theres a Solar roof that recharges batteries continuously.

        You drive in and swap batteries, drive off in your Solar-charged battery. It apparently takes 9 hrs to recharge the Prius battery at 1 kw per hr, about like a hairdryer.
        Rate this comment: 12345

        dotcommodity
        03/03/2007
        Posts:6
        • Re: Alternatively, how about Solar recharging stations?
          The Fast charge lithium ion batteries that I've heard of use 480V/250A 3 phase electricity. A solar array would likely be large. The size could be reduced in half using Gallium Arsenide arrays, and energy could be stored in lithium ion batteries which are able to charge and discharge rapidly.  The batteries could supply the energy to the charger.  If more power is needed, it could come from the grid.  A solar charging station would make the electric vehicle the ultimate green machine
          Rate this comment: 12345

          gman
          03/25/2007
          Posts:3
    • re: More possibilities..?
      The current hybrids can already get energy back from the motion of the car. However, they only generate energy during the braking process. Using the wind or the forward momentum of the vehicle to produce energy at other times would only reduce the efficiency of the vehicle.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      desolation0
      03/06/2007
      Posts:13
      Avg Rating:
      3/5
  • This is What We Need
    The fact is, the world is getting polluted by our development. We are all using dirty energy types. There isn't going to be a real solution if we all keep doing the same old methods and using the same old thinking.

    What we need to do is start using "clean" energy. There already exist this type, it covers our planet by almost 80%, and it's called water. But what keeps us from using it, is the cost to extract the hydrogen from the oxygen. If you really are going to fund research, do it where it matters the most for everyone on this planet, as once we understand the answer to produce the hydrogen from seawater, and affordable we all can stop going to war, stop polluting and change our pattern of destruction upon the only environment we all share on this planet.

    If we don't do this soon, there isn't going to be blue skies, clean water, fresh air for anyone. Come to China and your discover this now. Honestly, most of our polluted cities we cannot even see the Moon and the stars. It's become a luxury to experience a "blue sky" day here in China.

    China's development is based upon the American consumers, as more than 80% is exported mostly to the US. This is the reality, and I haven't even begin to paint the full picture here.

    No oil company is going to care, and if you check your oil companies, such as Exxon, your see they have made record profits in all of history this last year. Yes, profits in the billions of dollars when you Americans were paying more to drive.

    Please understand the whole picture, and know the best course of action isn't the Bush Administration, it's with the people, for them to choose... you are able to still do that right?
    Rate this comment: 12345

    RedChina
    03/03/2007
    Posts:1
    • Re: This is What We Need
      How interesting. Is it true that China has higher CAFE standards than the US? Do you have cars that get better mileage than here?
      Any links to their websites?
      I heard that we can't export our cars to China because the miles per gallon (mpg) is too low on our cars.
      One reason Detroit is in trouble. We just lost 100,000 jobs. I suspect its the same in Europe. They have like 100 choices of cars that get good mpg: we have only the Prius hybrid...long waiting lines
      Rate this comment: 12345

      dotcommodity
      03/03/2007
      Posts:6
    • Re: This is What We Need
      Unfortunately, if you havn't learned so already you will. Many people loath the responsibility of needing to think in our culture. If someone else, be it the President of the United States, or the President of Exxon wants to make a difficult decision for us, many people are all too happy to agree with them.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      desolation0
      03/06/2007
      Posts:13
      Avg Rating:
      3/5
  • Solar Roof?
    With the thin film Solar technology, one could coat the roof, hood, and trunk and charge your car during the day.

    As far as the tax credits go consider this, we already subsidize the oil industry to the tune of hundreds of billions every year.  If you added the cost of our middle east adventures to the cost of a gallon of gas how much would it be? 10 or 20 dollars a gallon?

    Lets put this cost where it belongs, on the oil companies. Then we wouldn't need any credits.


    Rate this comment: 12345

    jmaximus9
    03/04/2007
    Posts:83
    Avg Rating:
    3/5
    • Do you know how solarfilm works?Solar Roof?
      I see at nanosolar's website - the strips get printed with nanosolarcell ink, but a long roll of solar...? How would it attach to a roof? When do you think they will be available? I am holding off Solar panels because I hope nanosolar will be cheaper in a few years...but don't understand how it is applied.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      dotcommodity
      03/04/2007
      Posts:6
  • Include fab cost
    You absolutely MUST include the initial cost of the vehicle in the energy efficiency calculation.  When you do this, the electric cars currently on the market are actually LESS energy efficient than IC cars of the same size/weight.

    We already know how to DOUBLE the fuel efficiency of ALL cars: either carpool with one other person, or else move halfway to work.  But people don't want simple, obvious, low-tech solutions to their problems because the pain is also simple and obvious.  They would rather buy expensive, high-tech solutions because the pain gets disguised.  Then they try for the ultimate in hypocrisy: get the rest of society to pay for tax credits to reward them for their "selflessness."

    Don't get me wrong: I love R&D generally, and I love technology that keeps our environment clean.  But it is duplicitous for the upper middle class to live in huge houses in the outer suburbs (where there used to be woods and fields), drive large heavy SUVs long distances alone to work (and everywhere else, actually), and then say that they want tax credits to help them buy their newest toy because they are so concerned about the environment.  Yeah, right.

    Here's my plan: Gradually increase the federal tax on all forms of energy while simultaneously gradually increasing the personal exemption on federal income tax, in a revenue-neutral manner.  Do this over a ten-year period, and make the changes permanent.
    What will happen: Relocations of people back toward revitalized urban centers.  Increased use of mass transit.  Smaller and more energy-efficient houses and cars.  More car-pooling.  Hybrid vehicles and home solar/wind power will become competitive.  Less travel, more video conferencing, more e-commerce, more telecommuting.
    Net effect: Fewer KWH per $ of GDP, while retaining freedom of choice.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    dmm
    03/05/2007
    Posts:191
    Avg Rating:
    3/5
  • elec cars help wind power
    There is a point that I haven't seen in this thread, but that is a huge benefit of electric cars.  If we improve metering technologies people would pay less for off peak than for peak power, just like industry does, which usually we would pay much less than 0.10$/kwh.  The bigger benefit though is that with grid/metering improvements elec car owners could sell power back into the grid.   That would be distributed storage, which is just what technologies like solar, and especially wind, which generates best at night, need.

    Imagine this cool scenario - on the hottest days of the year, electric prices go high, a few million drivers take the bus so that they can sell the electric in their car batteries at peak dollar.  Think of all the electric generation capacity that would eliminate, as peak load on the grid would be met by people choosing to ride bicycles and ride the bus, instead of by the dirtiest, oldest coal plants kicking on a few times a year to meet peak demand.  More generally, having millions of electric cars on the grid could serve to buffer the dynamics of wind/solar generation, and would allow much more of the overall grid capacity to be served by these alternatives.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    BufNY
    03/07/2007
    Posts:1
  • a better way
    There is a solar solution that consumers can take advantage of right now. I am a manager with a brand new company called CitizenRe. If you ever wanted to help the environment and get most of your energy from the sun and not from your dirty energy provider,this company will provide you a solar solution with NO UPFRONT COST! please investigate and continue discussion in this thread:
    www.jointhesolution.com/yorkville
    After you get real excited about this program and want to help spread this GREEN solution, go to:
    www.powur.com/yorkville
    Rate this comment: 12345

    solarnow
    03/08/2007
    Posts:2
    Avg Rating:
    1/5
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