Comments

• Hybrids as emergency or off-grid energy source steverose on 12/21/2006 at 2:57 AM

  Posts: 3

  Please see the letter to Toyota from 2001 under "Life with the Prius Hybrid" at www.steverose.com for a further understanding of why a standard hybrid (no additional batteries required, but works in either case) is an excellent and surprisingly economical source of household electricity, requiring only a small software change (locking the inverter at 60 Hz) and adding a socket.  Unfortunately, Toyota never responded. Aloha, Steve Rate this comment: (Reply)

• what I don't get meistro on 12/21/2006 at 4:50 AM

  Posts: 2

  A big part of the cost of a plug in hybrid is for the batteries, and the lifetime of those batteries is (mostly) relient on the number of times they are charged and discharged.  Won't using them to bolster the reliability of the grid really just shorten their life span.  Essentially won't the owner be losing money in the long run, because their batteries will last shorter than they would have.  I don't think the pennies difference in electricity prices will offsett the price that is incurred on the owner of the car for battery degradation.  Please correct me if I am wrong. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: what I don't get captnsaj on 12/21/2006 at 3:48 PM

    Posts: 2

    Current battery technology works that way.  However, a lot of money and time is being spent on finding ways to improve battery life and performance - sometimes with nanotechnology. Of course the first few generations of PHEVs are not going to have batteries that are not radically different than we have now, but the buyers are probably enthusiasts and probably won't mind the extra cost or incovenience.  After a few generations, the technology will be ready for prime-time (or so we hope). Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: what I don't get chassin on 12/22/2006 at 5:27 PM

    Posts: 1

    Battery life is most affected by operating temperature and depth of discharge.  Increase either and the battery life shortens.  The study did not assume that battery would be full discharged, or that they would be operating under extreme thermal conditions.  A 10% discharge on a typical lead-acid battery gets 5000 cycles, but a 100% discharge only 500 cycles.  A typical lead acid will live 10 years at 35C but could live 30 years or more at 15C.  The V2G assumption is that battery charging takes place whenever you're home and so you're plugged in anyway, and more often off-peak.  Typically there is a grid emergency requiring fast-acting reserves once a day and then only for less than a minute or two.  The draw rate can be controlled based on how much is available and should be used to prevent overresponses anyway. Such microdischarges can allow to 300,000 to 500,000 battery cycles.  As a result this shouldn't shorten battery life appreciably.  Personally, I didn't get the IP address thing.  If we plug into buildings that have meters that understand real-time prices for both energy and ancillary services such as spinning reserves, then whenever we help the grid, we get a credit on our bill.  Why get fancy when AMR is already capable of doing the job.  What's more why don't we just call it even and charge the battery for free in exchange for a small fraction of the discharge capacity as grid reserve.  Ancillary services are really worth about 50% of energy anyway. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: what I don't get DrWelly on 01/02/2007 at 5:15 PM

    Posts: 6 Avg Rating:

    True and Not True ... Yes, battery life depends strongly on the cycling depth of discharge (and op temp).  However, the depth of discharge concept is not quite applicable in the PHEV.  For "normal" HEV, battery runs between 35-50 and 70-75% SOC depending on the OEM strategy.  The main advantage of the PHEV is to extend that electric energy storage by replacing the 5Ah battery with, says, a 50Ah battery.  Therefore, battery still operates in the similar SOC ranges in PHEV, but you get 20Ah instead of 2Ah running in electric power alone. Another nice feature with PHEV is that the battery are running at a much lower rate (Amps per surface area) which allows low or mid-power and somewhat "immature" battery chemistries become a major player.  That is, it is safe enough to use your existing laptop Li-Ion battery technology to run a car as you are only charging/discharging at 2 to 3C-rate and <<5C-rate (for a 40-50Ah pack).  Otherwise, your battery will need to run at 10 to 20C-rate (for typical 3 to 6Ah HEV packs). The main disadvantages are: (1) carrying all those extra battery weight at least 10 times more, (1a) loss of cargo space, (2) extra set of charging equipment - on or off-board, and (3) larger motor to allow extended period running at all electric mode and at a higher/reasonable speed. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	Smart chargers protn7 on 12/21/2006 at 8:50 AM
  Posts: 39 Avg Rating:	Make smart chargers mandatory and there will be no problem with grid crashes. Unless people cheat a lot. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• Already too expensive SirLanse on 12/21/2006 at 9:13 AM

  Posts: 35 Avg Rating:

  OK so we are not buying hybrids because the batteries and electronics are too expensive. The ones we have, don't come with extention cords because they are too expensive.   The power company wants to add a bunch of junk onto the system to control your use, and that won't be too expensive?!?!!! Don't let this crap be required on hybirds. Adding all these electronics will ruin them. That is how the power company destroyed private windmills.  They require electronics to meld into the grid that raises the costs well above the break even point. Let me have a windmill whose sole purpose is to charge my cars.  A windmill, a couple batteries for capturing the day's power and a cord to pass it all to my car at night. It could even do it all in DC since the distances are short. (but that would be a hazard to stupid people) Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: Already too expensive donkeyboy on 12/21/2006 at 5:50 PM

    Posts: 2

    Dear Sir Lancelot I fully understand your windmill obsession and share your paranoia about their demise. However, the power company should add "junk" to your meter to offer you cheaper electricity in off-peak periods. Your hybrid would then charge up during the cheapest part of the night. The effect is like adding millions of capacitors to the grid where energy can be stored. Your total cost should go down. You might even have spare cash to build your pet windmill (which you will find out wont generate nearlly enough electricity to charge your hybrid - even on windy days) Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: Already too expensive bpost911 on 12/22/2006 at 12:32 PM

      Posts: 1

      Lancelot points out one important point about DC power.  Hybrids run off DC power, but your line power is AC.  As another point tries to point out that with a parallel hybrid you "could" sync the alternator output to 60Hz, but that's easier said than done too and it's not set up to run as an inverter.  Said inverters that would employ a grid tie such as used by wind and solar users to supply power back to the grid are not cheap.  They generally start at $1000-2000 range.  They are also not 100% efficient.  Every conversion from AC to DC and then back again to AC will cost you anywhere from 5-10% each time.  Will the power company pay for all this equipment and for the lost electricity to allow use of the hybrids as a big energy storage pool?  I'm guessing that this is all pie in the sky, which while technically it can be done, it would be expensive and unworkable for the above reasons. Rate this comment: (Reply)

      • 	Re: Already too expensive donkeyboy on 12/22/2006 at 4:04 PM
        Posts: 2	Point taken, my capacitor analogy implies it is easy to pump the stored energy back into the grid. That is wrong, it probably isn’t feasible. The article does not imply that either - it simply proposes a new use for underutilized capacity on the grid. Let’s not confuse the two problems. Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • 	Re: Already too expensive Stu on 12/29/2006 at 7:32 PM
      Posts: 1	What will be too expensive is to delay in facing the enormous problems acumulating from Climate Change. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • 	Re: Already too expensive Kevtyo on 01/17/2007 at 8:04 PM
    Posts: 4 Avg Rating:	Having a private windmill will ruin whatever land you have, and why go through all that trouble just because you oppose of plug-ins?  You'd have to like in Antarctica to get that much wind.  Plug-ins do not ruin cars,and they do not take up space- unlike windmills...  If you see wrong in this- just join the Honda and Toyota dealers- and no one there will disagree. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	Wrong End of the Problem slipperyweasel on 12/21/2006 at 11:36 AM
  Posts: 2 Avg Rating:	Why do we keep trying to increase the supply and variety of fuel sources for personal cars?  If we attacked the demand side of the problem and increased the availability and efficiency of public transportation, we would not have the extent of the fuel or traffic problems that we are trying to solve our way out of.  Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: Wrong End of the Problem kitk on 12/21/2006 at 1:57 PM

    Posts: 55 Avg Rating:

    Sure, attack the consumer. Right. How do you want to kill them? My God, this is a leftist dream--dupe the consumer into paying off everything, buying a system that will drain itself just before time to drive home. Then, of course taxes will go up for energy use. Even if this worked, some, any error in the controls would drain too much, or overload the projected millions of plugged-in cars at work parking lots, after the tens of millions of dollars spent to add all the convenient plugs. The only part of this that makes ANY sense is a smart, night-time charger. I will stick with my gas-guzzling old Scout, as I live far from town. Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: Wrong End of the Problem beesidemeusa on 12/21/2006 at 5:34 PM

      Posts: 4

      Much of the hydrogen power, EV, zero pollution drive is from political nanny-staters and environmentalist whackos. Every proposal requires more mandatory controls on peoples behavior. The proposals also require big outlays of money [taxes] to make the change then to buy and use those vehicles will be too expensive. Get out your bicycles. What we need is to gradually ease over to non-petroleum fuels made from plants and supplement those with electricity. A steam-electric hybrid can use any liquid or gaseous fuel and plug in too. Hydrogen power is hype, because it will take up to a century or more to make it practical, EV's are tied to the electrical grid, short ranges and long recharge times. E-mail - beesidemeusa@yahoo.co.uk - for more about this idea. Rate this comment: (Reply)

      • Re: Wrong End of the Problem tla723 on 12/21/2006 at 6:15 PM

        Posts: 20 Avg Rating:

        I'm intrigued by the whole renewable energy from plants arguement. I've read a fair amount about recent ethanol manufacturing advances, and compared to dependence on foreign oil, it's practically utopia. But I don't see how this stands up as a long term solution. With water resources already stretched to the breaking point in many regions, plus ground water pollution generated by large-scale agriculture, it seems we will be heading down another dead end with this. Maybe we can figure out a way to make ethanol from sage brush and cactus? Rate this comment: (Reply)

        • Re: Wrong End of the Problem theredspade on 12/24/2006 at 10:09 AM

          Posts: 1

          Fortune magazine had a good article about the pit falls of ethanol a few months ago.  In essence, food costs are rising and will continue to rise as food sources are sold at oil equivalent prices.  It takes enough corn to fill a 25 gallon tank to feed a man for a year.  So, ethanol may be renewable, but you may pay the difference out in higher food costs.  Just something to think about. Rate this comment: (Reply)

          • Re: Wrong End of the Problem Marc Geller on 12/26/2006 at 6:35 PM

            Posts: 1

            The inevitable food v fuel pressure and the inability of biofuels to cover even our present day transportation fuel needs is why we need to focus on electricity.  We know we need to make the grid ever more renewable and green.  Plug-in hybrids and electric cars allow that green power to do double duty - replacing petroleum miles with electric miles. Zero-emission electric generation and zero-emission cars.  Helped by solar rebates and credits, PV and an EV is a reality today for hundreds of Californians. Zero'd out electric bill and nothing spent for gasoline.  Were plug-in cars available in showrooms, and they could be, tens of thousands already generating power with solar and wind could power their cars, too. With good federal policy, millions could truly live green beyond their most utopian dream. Rate this comment: (Reply)

            • 	Re: Wrong End of the Problem Cheap! on 12/27/2006 at 11:19 AM
              Posts: 1	I’m building my own Plug-in hybrid right now with the help of Calcars.org.  Once, I am done with that, I plan to use solar power collected from the roof of my home to power my commute to work everyday.  Why should we keep paying for consumables that we don’t need anymore? Follow along here. http://priuschat.com/My-official-Prius-Plus-mods-thread-t26951.html Rate this comment: (Reply)

              • 	Re: Wrong End of the Problem doteman on 01/15/2007 at 11:16 PM
                Posts: 5 Avg Rating:	What time of the day do you commute?  Your solar system may require significant energy storage to pull that off? Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: Wrong End of the Problem Steve on 12/22/2006 at 5:48 PM

      Posts: 5

      The US uses about 20 million barrels of oil per day.  Oil is now around $65 per barrel, wholesale, and over $80 per barrel for refined fuels at retail.  That means US consumers now spend at least $600 Billion for fuel annually.  And since production, refining, and retail costs are less than $30 per barrel when averaged over all sources of oil, $375 Billion of that is profit at various levels.  That’s the ‘rightist’ dream, in contrast to what you call the ‘leftist’ dream of vehicle-to-grid.  Which do you think is cheaper?  Fattening some oil shareholder’s wallet to the tune of $600 Billion per year, or V2G?  And that’s completely ignoring the other imperatives behind V2G, like pollution reduction and ending dependence on foreign oil.  Your concerns about vehicle batteries being drained too much or overcharged too much can all be addressed with electronics and software.  Chronic disbelievers who can’t bring themselves to trust the electronics can still own a plug-in-hybrid, but use a current interrupter to ensure the grid can’t draw anything from their batteries.  V2G sounds a lot cheaper than $600 Billion per year for oil. Rate this comment: (Reply)

      • 	Re: Wrong End of the Problem Kevtyo on 01/17/2007 at 8:12 PM
        Posts: 4 Avg Rating:	You're totally right. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • 	Re: Wrong End of the Solution Hamish.MacEwan on 12/24/2006 at 10:03 PM
    Posts: 1	This is less about more energy for cars, than solving the "burstiness" of electrical demand in a distributed win-win (non-zero sum) manner that benefits in many ways. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• TechReview story being picked up broadly felixkramer on 12/25/2006 at 10:52 AM

  Posts: 2

  This report is being cited and discussed by blogs all over, and, notably, by http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/12/plugin_hybrids_2.php http://www.autobloggreen.com/2006/12/24/lifecycle-analysis-of-gas-hybrid-and-electric-cars http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/12/24/17371/067 http://digg.com/design/Plug_In_Hybrids_Could_Help_Stabilize_The_Grid If you're looking for the latest info on plug-in hybrids and vehicle-to-grid, check out our http://www.calcars.org/news-archive.html http://www.calcars.org/faq.html (sorry, this site doesn't seem to accept html) -- Felix Kramer, Founder, CalCars.org Rate this comment: (Reply)

• A massive mobile subsidy paulneedham on 12/27/2006 at 12:13 AM

  Posts: 1

  If buying batteries and connecting them to the grid would allow the battery-owner to profitably buy low and sell high, then the utilities themselves would already be doing it. They are not. It's simply not (yet) cost effective to store then release the electricity. I don't understand why a fleet of mobile batteries would change the economics. If hybrid owners were required to carry excess storage capacity, it would be a massive subsidy to the utilities who could leverage that not-so-smart-grid without having to carry the capital cost of buying the batteries themselves. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	I don't trust the utilities daveminh on 12/27/2006 at 11:49 AM
  Posts: 1	If the utilities had this much control, they'd probably use it to increase, not lower prices.  California's energy deregulation was a mess.  You need proper policy controls to prevent corporate abuse of the system.  Or allow car owners, not the companies, to control input and output settings in their own best interest. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: I don't trust the utilities Jimbaber on 12/31/2006 at 3:10 PM

    Posts: 1

    They have NOT done much to engender our trust.  Mine, PG&E (N., Calif.) pays some lip service to being a good guy with programs like their school solar grants.  This program is interesting because, they spend 10 times what they give to the schools in ads patting themselves on the back for doing it...  They have been very obstructive in the net metering programs, in my case they delayed installation of TOU metering far beyound the stated 1 month stated in their own rate structure filings. (I had to call on this fact to get it done after 5 months of waiting for TOU meter installation.)....  Their rates have risen considerably in the last year, over 15% overall, but it has been hidden by changes to the usage tier structure rates so they could claim that the basic rate hadn't changed.  The fact is, very few people can live within that base line tier.  The company is very good at obscureing their real actions.  Any wonder why we don't trust them? Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: I don't trust the utilities naturlm on 01/23/2007 at 7:21 PM

      Posts: 10 Avg Rating:

      Suspect part of  CA Utility problems is use of natural gas electric plants using natural gas from Wyoming.  We use coal and nuclear back here in midwest.  I think natural gas is too valuable as a chemical raw materail source and heating source for homes for it to be used for electricity production ?  Why doesn't West and Northwest use more coal or nuclear and gradually increase wind and solar for their electric generation ?  As soon as Midwest and East Coast have cold weather gas prices rise and you feel cold winters draft in your electric bill ? Rate this comment: (Reply)

• America's Energy Crisis BeyondGreen on 08/29/2008 at 1:18 PM

  Posts: 2 Avg Rating:

  As the Democratic Convention wraps up and the hoopla of the Republican Convention heats up Americans are still left with a sense of a lot of hot air of any concrete plans to end the energy crisis in America. Northerners dread the upcoming onset of fall and colder weather wondering how they will be able to afford how to keep their homes and families warm. Southerners have been sweating the high cost of energy raising the thermostat to save on their electric bills. Families everywhere are wondering where else they can cut back to cover the cost of fueling up the family vehicle to get back and forth to work and take care of the necessities of life. There is no money left for relaxation and family fun. The stress level continues to rise. The average electric bill has risen 16% to cover the power companies additional production costs. A gallon of milk is almost as precious as a gallon of gas. The cost of every consumer product has risen sharply. American's are stretched to the limit. Jobs are being lost, foreclosures are increasing at an alarming rate. Seems even the family pets are suffering the high cost of fuel as almost daily a new story is on TV about shelters being forced to euthanize record number of surrendered pets from those forced out of their homes or no longer able to care for them. The energy crisis in our country is far reaching and needs immediate attention. I am hoping whoever gets elected will get their act together and make this their #1 priority. An interesting site to share... www.themanhattanprojectof2009.com www.howmuchenergydoesmycaruse.com Rate this comment: (Reply)