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The retrofitted plug-in hybrid is still far from mass production, however. Mark Verbrugge, director of the Materials and Processes Laboratory at GM, says developing a new kind of car costs about a billion dollars, so automakers want to be sure that it will actually sell. In the past, attempts to introduce electric vehicles have not been commercial successes. The primary concerns about plug-in vehicles include the cost of the system and the safety and lifetime of the large battery packs. Electro Energy's Klein estimates that the company's batteries will need to be replaced every five years -- well short of the 10 to 15 years automakers think would appeal to consumers.
Electro Energy engineers replaced the nickel-metal hydride battery used in the Prius with a battery using the same chemistry, but assembled in a much simpler, more compact way. Klein estimates that if automakers were to integrate the new batteries into cars from the beginning, the cars would cost about $5,000 more than a conventional car. As it is, the conversion kits will add $5,000 to the cost of a Prius, which already sells for thousands more than a conventional car in the same class. Electro Energy plans to retrofit more demonstration cars in the next 12 months, with the possibility of ramping up production to thousands of units in the following year.
Another company developing plug-in electrics is EnergyCS of Monrovia, CA, which uses lithium-ion batteries developed by Valence Technology of Austin, TX. Lithium-ion batteries currently cost more than nickel-metal hydride ones, but they're lighter, which could increase efficiency. The company is marketing the system through EDrive Systems of Los Angeles and plans to start retrofitting Priuses for under $12,000. A Toronto company, Hymotion, expects to offer consumers plug-in hybrid kits for a variety of hybrids by later this year; the Prius kit will cost about $9,500.
Guest (Charlie Peters)
Interesting but, how much profits generate from the Priuses? Made in Japan and China & helped with $thousands of tax generated welfare. The PR is helping Toyota sales but no profit from the car.
(510) 537-1796
It's not all about the costs, if it helps you can think of it as a large scale prototype that helps PR.
We need a way out of oil, and this is one way that's sure to help and almost painless.
Guest (david)
The beauty of the existing Prius is that it essentially recharges itself for "free" utilizing kinetic energy which would otherwise be thrown away.
Are there estimates as to how much a "recharge" will cost even at off-peak rates?
One needs to ask not just MPG but also MPD (miles per dollar - what the consumer looks at) and put gas and electricity into the same equation.
Guest (Priusmaniac)
Reply to : what about the costs ?
The cost of electricity is only one factor. It depends on where you live and at what time of the day you buy it, but it goes from 2 to 18 cent/KWh. With a 5 miles/KWh Prius efficiency, that amounts to 0.4 to 3.6 cent/mile.
The other factor is gasoline price, that goes from 190 to 700 cent/gallon according to where you live, be it Dubai or London. This equals for a 50 mpg Prius to a range of 3.8 to 14 cent/mile.
From this it becomes obvious that even in Dubai, you gain in operating costs by driving with electricity.
Guest (rbh)
The grid is no more than 50% efficient after transmission.
After power plant and battery cycle efficiencies 'plug-ins' are NOT more effective than direct gasokine engines. The cost estimates above need about a 3X multiplier !
So while the cars could run on 'coal' that would be the extent of the gains, poluting (and CO2 at the power plant site instead of the city. This is a small effect with Pzf cars !!!
Guest (Priusmaniac)
David’s question was how do gasoline and electricity compare in cent/mile, nothing else. What he wanted to know was what would be the difference for him, in his own pocket dollars.
On the other hand, the question that you raise has already been answered by Professor Andy Frank of the University of California at Davis, even in the worst case scenario of electricity produced from coal an electric vehicle is still producing less CO2/mile then a standard car.
In the case of the Prius that difference is lower, but because the plug-in package also improves the regen capability of the car, it still exist. Especially in the hills or on mountain roads where much regen must be done.
is it to go to war for oil, to deal with muslim countries who's people hate us and buy their oil, to ship oil, etc...
Guest (Aymeric)
I agree totally. Everybody acts like the electricity from the wall outlet is free. it is neither free to the consumer nor free of added carbon to the environment. Electricity has to be produced after all.
It is really shortsighted to blame the car for the source of electricity. This isn't a case of the chicken or the egg. Electric cars have zero emissions, if you choose to power them from bad sources that's not the cars fault.
What is like the chicken and egg is that if we have the cars, then making more solar/wind and other alternatives makes more sense, because we'd have the storage to make better use of it.
Guest (Phil)
100 MPG? I don't think so...
It's dishonest to claim 100+ miles per gallon in this car by discounting the primary fuel used to create the electricity used while plugging in.
With regard to cost, Priusmaniac under quoted the range of the cost of electricity. A kWh in my area already costs 20 cents, and I know I don't live in the most expensive power region in the US. Other countries as a whole pay as much as 30 cents.
Guest (J Young)
100 MPG? I don't think so...why not?
Ok. It gets 100+ mpg of gasoline.
Yes it takes fuel to produce the electricity to charge the batteries but that is usually not oil. It also takes energy to transport oil and refine it. How much I don't know.
By the way, my electricity costs between 3 and 9 cents per kwh depending on how much I use.
Guest (KB)
Of course electricity costs vary, but I've seen estimates that an overnight charge could cost between 50 cents and a dollar. The battery packs' capacities are in the neighborhood of 7kWh, so you can do the math based on your local rates. A dollar for 25 miles is better than you can get with gasoline now.
But the main advantage of plug-ins could be reducing dependence on oil
Guest (Phil)
As others have pointed out, there is little to no hardware in place currently to differentiate electricity bought at night from any other time of the day. This means that there are significant infrastructure costs to taking advantage of off peak rates.
Guest (Greg)
My house has had a time-of-day electrictiy meter for 25 years now (and I have different rates according to when the electricity is used). I think it's fairly common in my area (MD).
Guest (ReubenDenver)
Reducing the dependence on foreign oil would also reduce the profits inside oil companies. Shifting cash flow from oil companies to battery mfrs and electric companies (coal) will meet resistance. There is a TON of oil money in DC.
Consumers would be faced with higher up front costs for vehicles. They are also the first to want 100MPG AND the first to demand warranty repairs if those batteries and recharging systems don’t perform ( more risk for Honda – the other hybrid Mfr- I love my Honda!)
So where is all the Freedom Car and PNGV money going? Maybe our tax dollars should be shifted to reward patents on batteries or tuition for continuing education of physical sciences ( math, chemistry, physics…)
PHEV need better batteries and that has been the mantra ever since California tried to push EV’s . Don’t hold your breath!
Guest (Christi in Toledo)
Consumers are smart AND frugal
I concur with ReubenDenver wholeheartedly. He's brilliant!
Upfront costs for PHEVs will deter all but the yuppies and the EV lunatics who will pay anything to say they are driving only with electricity. Most people will do the math and realize the cost savings will never exceed the initial costs. And unfortunately not too many people really care about the environmental benefits over the impact on their pocketbooks.
Research money needs to be put towards much much better battery technology to increase life, reduce weight, and reduce cost, before PHEVs or EVs will be successful. Sorry EV fanatics! Reality bites.
Guest (William Millard)
Perhaps we should levy a tax on low mileage vehicles to subsidize the purchase price of high mileage vehicles?
Guest (Whosy Whatsit)
Why is the camera phone credited with the photo? Can we please keep our advertising DISTINCTLY seperate from our content... pretty please?
Guest (ddb)
Because listing the type of camera and f-stop is actually very common on photographers credits...they really weren't doing anything unusual there. Now, if they didn't list the photographers name, that would be an advertising.
Guest (Henry Gale)
Electric is not cheap, and alot of cases, oil is used to run the electric generation. So there might be a saving at the pump but when your electric bill goes up $100 a month what have you really saved?
Guest (Edward)
We have been driving 2 electric cars for commuting and running errants for 3 years now. We seldom use our Prius. Our electricity rate is 13 cents a kWh. Our electric bill went up ..... $13/month.
We are even planning to refinance the house and take the equity to install solar panels on the roof. It would eliminate our electric bill. And, we would be using clean solar power. The loan payment would be about the same as our electric bill but tax deductable. And, after the loan is paid off, we would have no more electric bill to pay. It would also increase the resell value of the house.
The solar energy hitting your roof are wasted everyday if you don't use it. It is free. What's better than free?
Guest (Peter)
what about the battery replacement?
Has the battery life and replacement costs, including safe recycling of the batteries, been factored into these running costs?
Guest (satan)
How many Miles do you get per watt and what is the cost of that? This does nothing to solve CO2 pollution, How is the electricity produced at the power plants? Coal, nuclear?
Guest (SherryB)
Even with the current national grid, which is 50% dirty coal, plug-in hybrids or electric vehicles would reduce overall greenhouse gas emissions. See a summary of data in the FAQ of my web page, www.sherryboschert.com
Guest (Dick)
Roughly, count on an electric consumption of about 7 KwH to go 20 miles of commuter driving: relatively flat; 25 -35 mph.
Guest (Leo)
Where the electicity comes from?????
Doesn't most of the electicity come from the same fossil fuel as used in cars?
Guest (SherryB)
Gasoline only comes from fossil fuels. Electricity can come from other sources including clean solar and wind power. Plug-in hybrids will even help expand use of renewable power by providing storage for intermittently produced wind and solar -- energy that then can be tapped through vehicle-to-grid technology.
Details in my upcoming book on plug-in hybrids. See www.sherryboschert.com
Guest (Cobraphx)
Where electricity comes from...
I'm sure it comes from many places, where I live a significant portion comes from nuclear plant. Not much CO2 being released there. The overall mix of power plants in the U.S. is 55 percent coal,
9 percent natural gas, and 4 percent oil. But even the worst plant is much more effiicent at extracting energy from the fossil fuel than your car's gasoline engine. A coal plant will produce much less CO2 powering electric autos than those auto's burning gasoline would produce.
Guest (BB)
And don't forget power produced from dams and spillways. Up here in the northwest, most of our power is hydro/electric!
Guest (Cobraphx)
Where electricity comes from...
I'm sure it comes from many places, where I live a significant portion comes from nuclear plant. Not much CO2 being released there. The overall mix of power plants in the U.S. is 55 percent coal,
9 percent natural gas, and 4 percent oil. But even the worst plant is much more effiicent at extracting energy from the fossil fuel than your car's gasoline engine. A coal plant will produce much less CO2 powering electric autos than those auto's burning gasoline would produce.
Guest (Weston Anderson)
What is the overall energy efficiency?
The energy must still be converted to electricity and the electricity transmitted over transmission lines to the user. My understanding is that the incremental electrical energy load is normally produced from natural gas. By the time all of the costs and environmental factors are considered I am not sure we come out ahead.
Guest (Rui)
Alternative clean power sources, like wind, sea waves, solar, biomass or hydroelectric, given the consumption forecasts, will never be enough to satisfy the needs. Nuclear power will became an inevitable option in the electrical mix power generation.
Guest (Susan K)
Actually you are mistaken. There is enough to power the planet many times over with solar, about 2 times over with wind.
(PDF)
http://www.ases.org/climatechange/climate_change.pdf
We just need to commit to a future thats based on clean energy.
The difficulty is that there's some pretty entrenched interests already making a living out of digging energy out of the ground.
Guest (Cobraphx)
Where electricity comes from...
I'm sure it comes from many places, where I live a significant portion comes from nuclear plant. Not much CO2 being released there. The overall mix of power plants in the U.S. is 55 percent coal,
9 percent natural gas, and 4 percent oil. But even the worst plant is much more effiicent at extracting energy from the fossil fuel than your car's gasoline engine. A coal plant will produce much less CO2 powering electric autos than those auto's burning gasoline would produce.
Guest (William Millard)
It is not only more efficient to obtain power from centralized powerplants, but it's easier to put pollution controls on a few large power plants than on millions of vehicles. They're already paid for, too.
Guest (Levis Kochin)
Plug in hybrids will first be adopted by early adopters who value the Gee-Whiz factor enough to to pay for a lot of batteries.
IF the batteries are made durable and quickly rechargeable the next should be taxis and delivery trucks which can amortize the capital cost of the batteries over many miles per week.
The French should come next. High fuel prices, some time of day pricing and so many nukes that they have to reduce the power output of some reactors during the night.
Guest (Bill Wood)
Ethanol not oil for Hybrids. Ethanol not competition
Why not miminze oil consumption with e85 for the combustion engine. Cellulosic fuel alcohol is secure, infinetely sustanable, forever affordable, and much more environmentally responsible.
Guest (ir0ck)
Ethanol not oil for Hybrids. Ethanol not competition
And what are we to do if there's a drought in the secure supply of cornstalks region ? Battery power is where we need to put our nickels and dimes. Storing Energy.
Guest (Jarrod Frates)
Complete ethanol replacement impossible
Even if we converted every acre of corn production to ethanol, we couldn't replace more than a small fraction of the oil we use with ethanol. The use of sugar cane or sorghum would improve yield, but we still would be massively reliant on imported petroleum.
Guest (Karl)
I disagree. Alcohol produced from sugar cane and sugar beets far outproduces alcohol from corn and is much less labor intensive. We can and should make use of alcohol as an alternaltive fuel. Engines can be made that run entirely on alcohol as so some race cars now.
Guest (Mitz)
The truth about cellulosic ethanol
From here:
Life in a grass house
http://www.theoildrum.com/story/2006/3/7/03949/82426
In short, cellulosic ethanol is not infinitely sustainable (soil depletion) and not cheap (cutting, transportation, processing, enzymes...). Driving less, in smaller cars, must be mentioned as an important part of any solution.
Guest (Jeff)
infinetely sustanable not free try solar or wind
I sit around my all electric house on well and septic not processing fuel for bio this or that. I have plenty of excess electricity using a wind generator and solar to charge batteries. What I would like is for someone to make a kit to retrofit existing cars with this technology with replacement batteries just like my good old battery operated drill. When one runs out you swap it with the one in the charger. Build that I'll buy it for a $1
Guest (Johnny Doe)
There is a new kind of lithium battery that can store about 8 times more power than nickel-metal hydride battery. This battery was feature in one of MIT technology review article. THey should use the new lithium battery and they can drive the car much longer just on the charge in the battery. And this battery system only takes 5 minutes to charge it tow 90%. Go to http://www.a123systems.com/html/home.html and see. Or just do a search for A123 System lithium batteryon MIT technology review.
Guest (Tom)
costs and benefits of plug in hybrid
Taking Phil's example, 150 kWh per month would save 20 miles a day on gasoline, or 600 miles a month on gasoline. Assuming an electricity price of 10 cents per kWh (high in New England, low for most of the country), that electricity would cost $15 per month but save $60 per month in gasoline costs, a net savings of $45 per month or $540 per year. If a customer wants to be repaid the extra costs of buying a plug-in hybrid in six years, the extra costs of ownership should be no more than about $3200 vs. the alternative, when fully commercialized. That seems feasible, given the progress we are seeing in battery technologies.
Guest (Phil)
I'm guessing that in your analysis you seemed to have used a mile per gallon on gasoline of maybe 30, and a cost of fuel of $3 per gallon (600/30)*3=60. So in this case the "alternative" that you are comparing with is a "standard" car. All along we have been talking about plug-in "hybrids" which already cost thousands of dollars more than the "alternative". Add in more batteries, charge controllers, etc. and the cost goes up even more.
Guest (Tysto)
costs and benefits of plug in hybrid
Plus, keep in mind that gasoline prices are likely to continue to rise faster than the cost of electricity, making a modestly higher up-front cost still economical, even discounting the eco-friendly bonus.
Guest (Khalid)
What about back-end environmental costs
Maybe I'm also being just a wee bit dense, but doesn't this type of idea ignore the back-end costs in terms of renewable resources? Sorry... let me be clearer. A significant chunk of generating capacity comes from non-renewable resources. Adding electric hybrid vehicles to the grid would potentially quite substantially increase the rate of consumption of renewable resources. In addition, the savings made, in terms of pollution, would be shifted from individual vehicles back to the power stations. Finally, increased pollution due to the increased use of battery technology (extremely toxic stuff) would adversely impact the local environment, when it comes time to dump the car. So... again... I'm not sure how the case can be successfully made that a hybrid electric vehicle is the way to go. It's certainly an interesting stop-gap solution, though.
Thoughts? Comments? Critiques? Flames? <grin>
Guest (ReubenDenver)
Critique – I think you meant to say “… rate of consumption of NON renewable …”
Comments –
--We need to reduce consumption of foreign oil, coal miners are not typically anti American.
--See William Millard’s comments (above)
--Recycling of cars is very efficient. Most all batteries from hybrids will be recycled. It is the consumer NiCd that are a problem
--When fuel prices are consistently between $3-$4/gal , other options become profitable (plug in HEVs , diesel, ethanol and hydrogen). Until then, hybrids will continue to be just an “interesting” transition, a very LONG transition (unless batteries take some technical leaps – keep working A123)
Guest (Floyd Keneipp)
You're right - Most electricity is generated from coal and natural gas
Natural gas powers most 'peaker plants that operate during the day to meet lrage day time power requirements. Plugging in a bunch of cars during the day would consume huge amounts of natural gas at the electric generators. Coal powered generators run 7/24 becasue once they start, you don't want to shut then down, si they provide most power at night. Plugging in cars at night would consume require large amounts of coal fired gneration to support. So this is not a good solutions from a coal/natural gas perspective.
Guest (Jeff)
Has anyone looked to retrofit existing cars?
With the old saying "Why re-invent the wheel" why can't this technology be applied to an existing platform in say a kit form. That would substantially bring the price down, put these "hybrids" into the hands of the average consumer, and do what we are all looking to do in the first place, lower emissions and use less oil.
Guest (Douglas Hvistendahl)
Electrocharger has a retrofit to make any car into a mild hybrid. Addiing batteries could increase storage, add a charger to make a PHEV. As of the last time I checked, it is still a few months to commerciallize.
http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/electrocharger/electrocharger.php
Guest (Khorak)
If kits are sold to retrofit cars then car manufacturers "miss out".
Don't forget that Oil and car manufacturing companies are among the strogest lobbies. I have been looking to retrofit my Volkswagon Westfalia for some time but finding a suitable electric motor and controller have so far made it totally unfeasable.
Guest (Californian)
Home Solar Panels to power PHEVs
Won't PHEV encourage more people to find cheaper ways of creating electricity like home solar panels. It can allow consumers more flexibility with how they power their vehicles.
Re: Home Solar Panels to power PHEVs
Yes, solar PV systems will allow you to recharge your PHEV with free energy from the sun. In fact, solar recharging may become a necessity. As PHEV's gain popularity, the electricity grid is likely to become overloaded. And although the cost of a PV system large enough to handle the needs of a PHEV is high, so is the cost of gasoline!
Unfortunately, there are a lot of folks who'll resist giving up their internal combustion engines. Can you imagine replacing the sound of a well-tuned V8 engine with the high-pitched sound of an electric motor?
I suspect that those who drive large or overpowered vehicles for no apparent reason are just compensating, and will be the biggest opponents of electric vehicles of any kind. Expect to see a lot of opposition to electric vehicles, and a multitude of reasons to continue using internal combustion engines. Meanwhile, PHEV's will start to show up on our roads because they make sense.
http://solarjohn.blogspot.com
John
Guest (energy guy)
hybrids + nuclear = nuclear transportation
Running hybrids off nuclear power would cut oil imports and CO2.
Re: hybrids + nuclear = nuclear transportation
Yeah and give terrorists a bunch of new targets. Great idea.
Re: hybrids + nuclear = nuclear transportation
Terrorists might have a new target, but it's one of the most defensible targets ever.
I'm not for nuclear because of the time for waste to become safe. I would be for nuclear if the only threat was terrorists.
Give it up. The era of the automobile is almost over and not a minite to soon. Even if plug-in hybrids are a bit better environmentally, there is still not enough road space for an ever going population to be able to drive everywhere for everything
For the extra $5000-$10,000 per vehicle per person that plug-in hybrid technology is going to cost, we could build a great rapid transit system.
Don't assume the cost will go down with increased production. We are in a world with ever increasing demand on limited resources. If enough people use hybrids to make any difference, the cost of whatever is used to make the batteries is going to climb dramatically.
I predict in 50 years the automobile will go the way of the horse. People will store them in garages in the country and only use them for fun drives on the weekend. This would bring the passion and fun back to driving!!!
And for travelling larger distances, high-speed rail rocks:
http://www.technologyreview.com/microsites/spain/train/index.aspx
I agree that Rail is a great way to go; however, it would take a monumental mind shift to get people out of their cars. Witness the ever popular SUV (which seem to get larger and larger). Therefore, we must encourage more fuel efficiency; which I believe means more plug in hybrids. Plus we will have more wind turbines and solar generation, both commercial and residential, to help generate a cleaner environment. But I do wish we had the super trains that Japan and Europe have.
Manufacturing in the United States is in trouble. That's bad news not just for the country's economy but for the future of innovation.
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Guest (Sean)
What about grid strain?
Maybe I'm being having a dense moment (it happens), but it wasn't too long ago we were hearing how strained the power system was by everybody's computers & air conditioners being on all the time. Wouldn't having lots of people plug their cars in all night be a bit of a problem here?
(Okay, yeah, I know there wouldn't be a large percentage of the population buying these cars any time soon, but still.)
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Guest (Matt)
Plug In Hybrids
Grid Strain is only an issue in peak times. Off Peak night times are ideal for charging batteries.
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Guest (Dave W)
Grid strain
The point is valid. Similar experience in UK using heat storage systems that drew power overnight. Eventually peak load shifted as a result and consumers were stuck with unrealized savings because of increase in off-peak rates.
My main concern would be that the electricity coming out of the plug is not really all that efficient from a thermodynamic point of view.
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Guest (Mark K)
Excellent Points all Around
Let me add the cost, disposal, and related waste of the batteries themselves.
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asdar
73 Comments
Re: Excellent Points all Around
The initial cost is high, and there are some small related waste, and those are valid issues. Anyone that's disposing of battery material should be shot and have their material disposed of.
It can be recycled easily.
Lithium isn't a hazardous material, however so it's not a threat even if someone is dumb enough to want to dispose of it.
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Guest (Paul McLachlan)
Plug-in Hybrid Electrc Vehicles
The PHEV is undoubtedly the common vehicle of the future. The technical challenge is power-density, for the battery pack, the ICE and the vehicle as a whole. The size and weight of the ICE/generator unit will determin the range and performance just as much as the development of the ideal battery. The high power density Pivotal Engine will make the difference. see www.pivotalengine.com
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Guest (Tim)
Plugins
the OPOC also seems a good contender. I do like the opposed piston approach. Light, smooth and compact.
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Guest (Paul)
What about grid strain?
Uncontrolled charging of plug-in hybrids in the evening would be a problem if this was coincident with power levels on the local grid. This can be addressed by offering time-of-use rates and an automatic control (i.e. timeclock) to initiate vehicle charge after the "peak" power period has passed. However, this requires the local utility to install time-of-use meters so the consumer can be offered the lower electric rate. A more Draconian measure would be to "allow" plug-in hybrid charging ONLY if you had an electronic time clock and not provide a discount to the consumer. That would be nearly impossible to enforce although academically interesting to talk about.
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Guest (Ned)
While the country sleeps.
Consider that the recharging takes place overnight, not during the peak consumption time caused by a/c use and office habitation.
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Guest (JAB)
grid strain?
I agree with Ned that evening recharging is the lower grid utilization so that won't be a problem. Adding power to the grid, given its distributed nature, is a relatively well understood task. Overall, I would think the cost factor is a much greater barrier to adoption than potential grid strain.
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Guest (Steve)
grid strain
Most cars would be plugged in at night when demand is low. Also, battery charging only uses a tiny amount of electricity compared with say, a television or a home appliance.
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Guest (Phil)
Electric Draw
I ran a calculation that confirms Priusmaniac's quote that it takes a little over 1kwh to go 5 miles. That means that if you want to put 20 miles worth of charge in your battery you'll need 5kwh over the course of a night (1.2kwh/5 miles times 4, assume some inefficiency in battery, motor, etc.). 5kwh over an 8 hour period is 625 watts. That's 2 to 3 times more power than my big screen tv uses.
This also amounts to 150 kwh over the course of a month. Currently the average house uses about 700 kwh per month.
So I disagree with your assertion that that draw is "tiny... compared to a television or home appliance."
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Guest (Dick)
Electric Draw
The current Prius carries 1.7 KwH of NiMH battery. If you added four more of these units, you'd be up to 8.5 KWwH, which would carry you for a 20-25 mile commute on battery power alone. If you could recharge while at work, this translates to a 40-50 mile overall commute.
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Guest (Arthur Bebell)
electric cost per kwh
My cost could be about$24.00 - $30.00 per month. I spend about $35.00 per month for regular gasoline driving my Buick Regal. Please tell me about my economy!
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Guest (SherryB)
Off-peak can handle 80 million PHEVs
The off-peak, nighttime capacity of existing power plants could handle approximately 80 million plug-in hybrids before we'd need to think about adding a power plant. Details and more in my upcoming book, Plug-in Hybrids: The Cars that Will Recharge America.
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Guest (Patrick M)
Grid strain
Tired argument... have you heard of solar and wind to charge your battery... geesh, doesn't take a rocket scientist!!!!!!
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Guest (Phil)
Solar & Wind -- Where is it?
Another tired argument: Show me the solar panels and windmills that will do this recharging. How well do solar panels work at night?
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Guest (bob)
the new solar age
The new wave in solar tech can run at night. it relys on convection and heat stored in large salt water basins. at night the hot water can be pumped through the system to keep things going. the stored heat can also be used to vary the load during peek hours.
its still in the prototype stage but its looks promising.
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,54917,00.html
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burritos
2 Comments
My solar panels...
a 3.3KW system gives me about 10-17KW(off peak-peak season) a day. Because of net metering it basically turns the electrical meter backwards during the day and during the night it runs forward. So while I might not be using solar energy to charge during the night time, I can still get a net zero use of energy from the grid depending on how much electrical energy I might use outside of the car charging.
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Guest (Dick)
What about grid strain
The great thing is that the recharging is done overnight when the load on the electric grid is the lowest!
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Guest (Jim)
Re: Grid Strain
Sean, these PHEV cars would load the grid at night primarily. If some people were to charge during peak load periods, the recharge would consume at worst 9 kWh, about the same as your portable heater on high for 6 hours. By the way, at the national average electric rate of $0.085 kWh that is less than $1.00 a day for driving 35 - 50 miles.
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Guest (J Young)
potentially No grid strain
The idea is to have the cars charge when we are in bed and the electric usage is low.
Most power plants can't raise and lower output based on demand. They have constant output. Therefore, charging them at night would use power that would otherwise be wasted.
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Guest (Susan K)
Re: What about grid strain?
Add a lot of local solar and windpower to reduce grid strain.
To keep from burning more coal, the next step should be solar powered garages at home to plug electric cars into.
Imagine if malls and parking structures had solar panels on top, and sockets at every parking space so you could recharge during the day while at work, and in smaller topups while shopping.
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