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This discussion relates to Technology Review's article Is GM's Volt Ready to Roll? .

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  phoenix
  

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  09/18/2008 09:11 AM

  a long and bumpy road

  I would suggest that anyone reading this article, as the subject matter always seems to draw a fair amount of interest, Google 'the history of electric vehicles.' While it appears that they have been around in one form or another since the early 1800's, and that they could have become a permanent part of the American automobile culture, there were a number of mitigating factors which were responsible for their eventual demise. I hope, as probably many of you do as well, that GM is successful in bringing the Volt to market and make the electric vehicle available as a viable alternative to the Infernal Combustion Engine once more.

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    isaiah@borealis.com
    

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    09/18/2008 10:22 AM

    Re: a long and bumpy road

    GM has made a major blunder here.
    
    The Volt, without the "plug-in" feature, is a 50 mpg series hybrid. A lot of people would be thrilled to own a much more muscular Prius, with better mileage.
    
    But GM overreached. The "plug-in" feature adds hundreds of pounds in weight, as well as a battery that is a major technical challenge. AND it will add as much as 20,000 to the sticker price of the car! Even if the Volt works, few people will pay 35-45k for a car just because it can go 40 miles without using gas.
    
    Series Hybrids are great. The Volt has a LOT going for it. But if GM (or other automakers) can dial it back, they'll have a major technical and commercial success. Removing the battery cost will make it competitive on price. And removing the weight can make the performance eye-popping.
    
    BTW, see http://www.choruscars.com for an explanation of the various drivetrains.
    

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      swimdad623
      

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      09/21/2008 01:47 PM

      Re: a long and bumpy road

      Take a close look at the Volt drive train, and you'll see that it doesn't work without the battery. The internal combustion motor on the Volt gets 50MPG because it's only expected to generate 53HP of power, and it's been tuned to operate optimally at that level. The battery is the key - run the engine at the avergage power needs, and then use the battery to provide any extra or soak up any excess energy. Take away the battery, and the engine has to rev up and down to match the needs when going faster and slower.
      
      Also, there was one item in the article that isn't completely accurate. It says that the internal compustion engine is there to 'recharge the battery'. That's not accurate, as it's only there to generate enough energy to keep the car moving and keep the battery charge from going below 30%. The reason for this is two-fold. First, you lose about 10% of the energy by charging and discharging the battery, so you want to put as little energy as possible into the battery. Second, the Volt costs about 2 cents/mile to run on battery and about 8 cents per mile to run on gasoline (even at 50MPG), so you always want to pull into your driveway with an empty battery so you can fill it up electrically, rather than using gasoline.

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        RogerB34
        

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        10/17/2008 11:36 PM

        Re: a long and bumpy road

        I'm not clear on the battery and engine operation.
        My understanding is the car runs on battery alone until a specified level of charge, say 30 percent. Then the engine powers the electric motor directly and separately. There is no battery recharge by the engine. Might be some regenerative braking charge. GM hasn't stated the weight but likely is similar to Prius at 2900 lbs. A lot of car for 53 HP.

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    JoseSmith
    

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    09/18/2008 04:00 PM

    Re: a long and bumpy road

    This is heading in right direction for a short while…however thing is that, if every car out there becomes EV, then what is going to happen to the supply and demand of the electricity. Where is the extra juice going to come from? By burning more coal, oil? Building more dam with current weather and water situation?.. The amount of electricity we need to power all the EV in US or World in the future as we currently envision will not be satisfied by building a patch of wind or sun farm here and there.
    
    We are talking about vast area of land used up just to power all the EVs that is going be driven in the morning and evening for people just going to “work”. Remember, Human society requires much electricity for other areas too.
    
    All questions come down to the nature of the “power source”, whether it is revolutionary or evolutionary one.
    
    Instead of spending too much energy and dollar on the last end of the chain, more attention must be given to the beginning of the chain: new power source that is already in R&D, drawing board or in some smart person’s head…meaning throw enough darts and hope one will hit the bull’s-eye before it is too late…since, the so-called “point-of-no-return” appears to be approaching soon, if not here yet. Solve the cheap/plentiful power source question first and the car issue can be handled more easily and cheaply.
    
    And I think we can do it if we consider the current World situation as live-or-die (if not for us then at least for the our sons and daughters and on and on).
    
    Remember the Manhattan project?
    

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  robin26
  

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  09/18/2008 09:20 AM

  addressing buyers' fears

  Perhaps GM could:
  
  Announce a modest estimated lifetime of the battery packs, at first: say, 3 years or so.  Then, provide Volt buyers up front with a special warranty covering some or all of the cost of a future battery pack replacement, should the need arise.  Let the maximum cost to the customer be fixed in writing up front.  This will help reassure some potential customers who are reluctant because of fears over poor battery lifetime.  Treat battery replacement as an expected, long-term maintenance item, rather than a potential disaster that buyers must fear.
  
  This could also reduce the cost of the product, since the performance requirements for the first batteries can be somewhat reduced, at least partly offsetting the cost of the warranty.
  
  In several years, after battery technology improves and field data helps quantify the situation, perhaps the special warranties can be reduced or discontinued for future models.

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    richoweng
    

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    09/18/2008 12:29 PM

    Re: addressing buyers' fears

    Bravo robin26 this is exactly what I would recommend to Chevy!  Get the car out now and improve the battery in years to come.  Just don't make the vehicle so it can't receive future improvements to the battery.  As long as there is onboard battery charging capability even with a small IC engine the battery itself may not need to provide even a 40 mile range for most users.  If the car can get someone to work and then auto charge while parked.  Then right there his gas consumption his cut in half and the battery problem is also cut in half.

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      mentaltragedy
      

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      10/15/2008 05:29 AM

      Re: addressing buyers' fears

      as said in comments above, this would be incredibly stupid. as said, charging batteries with ic is incredibly inefficient and would be dumping excess carbon into the atmosphere for no good reason. it would nullify the reason for the car existing.  only charging through the grid is efficient.  its amazing how people criticize gm with totally invalid complaints. 
      
      and whining about the price... give me a break people.  when someone comes out with a 20k car with the same capabilities and specs as the gm then you can complain. the price is the price of technology. and people complained when car companies stopped development of ev's because it was expensive.  and now they complain when they are pushing ahead and it is still expensive:P 

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    mkogrady
    

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    09/22/2008 06:59 PM

    Re: addressing buyers' fears

    A three year warranty on batteries that account for 25% of the car costs may help, but this is still going to be a $40,000 investment and for many people an $800/month car payment won't be feasible.
    
    Even if Presidential Wanna-Be McCain gets his $300 million dollar battery program off the ground, it will be 5 or more years before anything gets to market.
    
    GM is better off adding a Natural Gas Powered engine or conversion to their product mix just in case their target market group of Upper Middle Class and Millionaires don't buy the Volt and favor the Prius for half the price! A CNG engine will fit in any madel car they make!

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  rttedrow
  

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  09/18/2008 11:17 AM

  Chevy Volt

  A whole 40 miles!  This is the response of the once-largest and richest auto maker?  Goodness, my grandmother would have said.
  
  In the early sixties, next door to my childhood home our neighbor had an electric car the <i>he had made<i> in a Renault body.  He drove it about 10 miles downtown and back every day, presumably recharging it at night.
  
  Should I add that was more than 40 years ago?
  
  It probably didn't default to gas after 40 miles, though . . . way to go, GM.

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  • 
    rnojonson
    

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    09/19/2008 09:45 AM

    Re: Chevy Volt

    Yeah, 40 miles, that's going to work one way for me. I think they are over engineering this electric car thing and need to forget battery arrays. The hybrid solution seems much better. A very clean burning and efficient engine, an alternator or two and an electric motor. Then who is the target customer? Average, middle-class folk, the bulk of the driving population, will not want a second mortgage to own a car and drive too many miles for leases to be practical. How many upper yuppies need to buy the Volt before the price comes down. Maybe I can buy a very used one.
    
    If GM wants to be the car hero, they should design the "people's car" like Volkswagen did. The concept has merit. They should create and fuel a vibrant aftermarket, I miss my "Whitney's catalog.
    
    If I were the Big3 auto makers, I would look into the best small engine/alternator combo, alternative fuels and powerful traction motors and target the bulk of drivers, average folk who make less than auto workers.

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    mentaltragedy
    

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    10/15/2008 05:25 AM

    Re: Chevy Volt

    thats just unrealistic and discounts the very real technical challenges to creating a practical electric car. it is very easy to build a golf cart.  it is very difficult to create a car that lasts for a decade and 100,000+ miles and has a decent range.  if it were so simple that an old crank in a shed could do it, it would have been done by now.  the limitation of the battery technology is very real.

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