Wednesday, March 05, 2008
Automakers Criticize Fuel Cells
GM and Toyota leaders admit that hydrogen fuel cells have serious problems.
The world's top automakers' leaders finally woke up, looked around, and realized what many experts have been saying for years: hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles don't make much sense. At the auto show in Geneva yesterday, Bob Lutz, GM's vice chairman, the global-warming skeptic who is nevertheless leading the charge at GM in promoting cleaner vehicles, seems to have come close to conceding that the company's much advertised fuel-cell program is little more than a marketing gimmick.
He said that fuel cells are still far too expensive, and that advances in lithium-ion batteries likely make fuel cells unnecessary, according to a report in today's Wall Street Journal.
As Toyota's president, Katsuaki Watanabe, voiced his skepticism about the technology, he noted that fuel cells are expensive and that infrastructure for distributing hydrogen widely doesn't exist.
Meanwhile, the U.S. government continues to pour money into research related to fuel-cell vehicles.
Experts have argued that powering cars with electricity distributed via the grid and stored in batteries is far more efficient than making hydrogen from water and distributing it. (For more arguments against hydrogen, see "Hype about Hydrogen.") What's more, the infrastructure to do so is already in place. Better batteries are needed for long-range electric cars. But cars that use batteries for daily driving and efficient gasoline or diesel engines for extended trips could overcome that problem while leading to significantly reduced greenhouse emissions.
Hydrogen may yet play an important role in the future, however. It could serve as a way to store energy from the sun to be used at night. To this end, researchers are developing more efficient ways to split water with sunlight. (See "Cheap Hydrogen.")
Comments
jmaximus9
03/05/2008
Posts:85
Fuel cells in principle can run on many other fuels.
gabrielg01
03/06/2008
Posts:418
Siphon
03/20/2008
Posts:152
Separate from the frequent emphasis on hydrogen cars, the reality is hydrogen can be used to power many applications. The next cell phone call you make could be powered by hydrogen since fuel cell power supplies support cell phone towers. In addition, the next time you shop at Wal-Mart the box of Oreo cookies and the new Blue Ray movie you purchase could be transported with a fuel cell forklift.
While the transition to hydrogen may appear to be complicated and far into the future, organizations such as Shell, Chevron, and BP are working with the Department of Energy now to establish a hydrogen fueling infrastructure. An initial $10 to $15 billion investment, equivalent to about one month of military spending in Iraq, would establish an initial refueling infrastructure within 2 miles anywhere within the top 100 metro areas and along all US highways. Furthermore, more than 40 billion kg of hydrogen are produced globally each year with production plants located near or within every major metropolitan city in the US - enough to fuel 130 million fuel cell-electric vehicles annually. Since hydrogen is also used to produce gasoline, switching from gas to hydrogen is simpler than it appears.
The Hydrogen Education Foundation appreciates the complexity of transitioning to using new fuels. We invite everyone to learn about what is fact and fiction about hydrogen as an alternative fuel.
NHA
03/06/2008
Posts:1
geddarkstorm
03/06/2008
Posts:1
georgeg100
03/07/2008
Posts:1
Maybe more money could be put into battery research but until either h2 or batteries solve the problem of producing an efficient inexpensive car that can be refueled rapidly and has a few hundered mile range why not fund both.
buelts
03/07/2008
Posts:12
"Neither fuel cells or batteries can a produce a car more efficient than internal combustion at a cost where your average consumer can buy it" .... A large SUV purchased today will burn 20,000 gallons of fuel over its lifetime; $60,000 - $80,000 worth of fuel. Even the garden variety sedan will burn almost half that; $30,000-$40,000 over its lifetime. That's how much money we're already spending as a society (not including subsidies like $3,000Billion wars etc). Cut that fuel bill in half over the life of the car and that's a lot of cash to work with. Thus, batteries / plug-in hybrids would be quite relatively affordable, as soon as they become available.
FreddyG
03/08/2008
Posts:14
buelts
06/06/2008
Posts:12
There is a reason that fuel cells have been relegated to spaceships and other exotic situations for 50 years. Too expensive, too persnickety, too low-efficiency.
Stationary apps may have some future (i.e. home heat and electricity). Give it another 40-50 years. In the meantime solar, wind, batteries, biofuels et.al. will be improving too.
If anyone wants to chat more about this see post on Talkphoria
nerdgrrl
03/10/2008
Posts:1
chumarkrch
05/19/2008
Posts:1
energymv
05/30/2008
Posts:19
In the next decade, hydrogen fuel cell car subsidies will begin to fade as the upcoming plug-in hybrid models hit the assembly line and take off like the original hybrid models (prius) did in the last decade. 2015 plug-in hybrid sales will probably triple or quadruple the 2005 hybrid sales. The only people who can't see it coming are the "hydrogen education foundation", the hydrogen lobby, and some cable news reporters.
Full disclosure - I have no financial conflict of interest in either the fuel cell or plug-in hybrid car technology or infrastructure. However if I had to put my money on one, you know where I would put it.
energymv
05/30/2008
Posts:19
On a different note a home fuel cell combined heat and hot water system is worth considering for a source of electricity for plug in hybrids. Combined heat power saves CO2 output per useful return of heat and electricity. Fuel cells have the advantage of central power plant like efficiency at far lower power outputs. With a central power plant, the waste heat in the process of generating electricity can't be utilized. With a combined heat and power system in a home or community the waste heat from electricity production for transportation and residential electric power can be utilized on sight. The waste heat from a fuel cell or gas powered car is also unrecoverable. A second benefit of using such a system to charge a plug in hybrid is that the electric power demand is load leveled thereby improving the economics of the fuel cell. Charging the car at night would allow the fuel cell to pay for itself more effectively by generating electricity for the car during off hours of residential electric usage. It is a waste of the capital expense of the fuel cell if it is designed to generate 5 kw for higher demand periods but spends a significant amount of its operating time at 500 watts.
buelts
06/06/2008
Posts:12
MickeyFouse
11/03/2008
Posts:47
SeamusT
03/18/2009
Posts:1