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February 2005

Do You Want to Live Forever?

Continued from page 1

By Sherwin Nuland

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De Grey has been indefatigable as a missionary in his own cause, joining the appropriate professional societies and evangelizing in every medium available to him, including sponsoring his own international symposium. Though he and his ideas may be sui generis, he is hardly an isolated monkish figure content to harangue the heavens and desert winds with his lonely philosophy. In addition to everything else, he has a remarkable talent for organization and even for his own unique brand of fellowship. The sheer output of his pen and tongue is staggering, and every line of that bumper crop, whether intended for the most scientifically sophisticated or for the general reader, is delivered in the same linear, lucid, point-by-point style that characterizes all his writings on life prolongation. Like a skilled debater, he replies to arguments before they arise and hammers at his opposition with a forceful rhetoric that has just enough dismissiveness -- and sometimes even castigation -- to betray his impatience with stragglers in the march toward extreme longevity.

De Grey is a familiar figure at meetings of scientific societies, where he has earned the respect of many gerontologists and that new variety of theoreticians known as "futurists." Not only has his work put him at the forefront of a field that might best be called theoretical biogerontology, but he swims close enough to the mainstream that some of its foremost researchers have agreed to add their names to his papers and letters as coauthors, although they may not agree with the full range of his thinking. Among the most prominent are such highly regarded figures as Bruce Ames of the University of California and the University of Chicago's Leonid Gavrilov and S. Jay Olshansky. Their attitude toward de Grey is perhaps best expressed by Olshansky, who is a senior research scientist in epidemiology and biostatistics: "I'm a big fan of Aubrey; I love debating him. We need him. He challenges us and makes us expand our way of thinking. I disagree with his conclusions, but in science that's okay. That's what advances the field." De Grey has by his vigorous efforts brought together a cohort of responsible scientists who see just enough theoretical value in his work to justify not only their engagement but also their cautious encouragement. As Gregory Stock, a futurist of biologic technology currently at UCLA, pointed out to me, de Grey's proposals create scientific and public interest in every aspect of the biology of aging. Stock, too, has lent his name to several of de Grey's papers.

De Grey enjoys increasing fame as well. He is often called upon when journalists need a quote on antiaging science, and he has been the subject of profiles in publications as varied as Fortune, Popular Science, and London's Daily Mail. His tireless efforts at thrusting himself and his theories into the vanguard of a movement in pursuit of a goal of eternal fascination to the human mind have put him among the most prominent proponents of antiaging science in the world. His timing is perfect. As the baby boomers -- perhaps the most determinedly self-improving (and self-absorbed) generation in history -- are now approaching or have reached their early 60s, there is a plenitude of eager seekers after the death-defiant panaceas he promises. De Grey has become more than a man; he is a movement.

I should declare here that I have no desire to live beyond the life span that nature has granted to our species. For reasons that are pragmatic, scientific, demographic, economic, political, social, emotional, and secularly spiritual, I am committed to the notion that both individual fulfillment and the ecological balance of life on this planet are best served by dying when our inherent biology decrees that we do. I am equally committed to making that age as close to our biologically probable maximum of approximately 120 years as modern biomedicine can achieve, and also to efforts at decreasing and compressing the years of morbidity and disabilities now attendant on extreme old age. But I cannot imagine that the consequences of doing a single thing beyond these efforts will be anything but baleful, not only for each of us as an individual, but for every other living creature in our world. Another action I cannot imagine is enrolling myself -- as de Grey has -- with Alcor, the cryonics company that will, for a price, preserve a customer's brain or more until that hoped-for day when it can be brought back to some form of life.

With this worldview, is it any wonder that I would be intrigued by an Aubrey de Grey? What would it be like to come face to face with such a man? Not to debate him -- a task for which, as a clinical surgeon, I would in any case be scientifically unqualified -- but just to sound him out, to see how he behaves in an ordinary situation, to speak of my concerns and his responses -- to take his measure. To me, his philosophies are outlandish. To him, mine would seem equally so.

With all of this in mind, I contacted de Grey via e-mail this past fall, and received a response that was both gracious and welcoming. Addressing me by first name, he not only had no hesitation in offering to give up the better part of two days to speak with me, but moreover suggested that we spend them close to the lubricating effects of invigorating fluids, as follows:

I hope you like a good English beer, as that is one of the main (open) secrets of my boundless energy as well as a good part of my intellectual creativity (or so I like to think...). A good plan (by which I mean a plan that has been well tested over the years!) is to meet at 11:00 a.m. Monday 18th in the Eagle, the most famous pub in Cambridge for a variety of reasons which I can point out to you. From there we may (weather permitting) be able to go punting on the Cam, an activity with which I fell in love at first sight on arriving here in 1982 and which all visitors seem to find unforgettable. We will be able to talk for as long as you like, and if there is reason to meet again on the Tuesday I can arrange that too.

The message would prove to be characteristic, including its hint of immodesty. And in a similar vintage was his response when I expressed hesitation about punting, based on friends' tales of falling into the Cam on a chilly autumnal day: "Evidently, your friends did it without expert guidance." As I learned, de Grey is not a man who allows himself to be less than expert at anything to which he decides to devote those prodigious energies so enthusiastically trumpeted in the e-mail, nor does he allow himself to hide his expertness under a bushel.

Of course, to conceive of oneself as the herald and instrument of the transformation of death and aging requires a supreme self-confidence, and de Grey is the most unabashedly self-confident of men. Soon after we met, this unexampled man told me that "One must have a somewhat inflated opinion of oneself" if success is to crown such great endeavors. "I have that!" he added emphatically. By the time he and I had said our good-byes after a total of 10 hours together over a period of two days, I was certain many would accept his self-estimate. Whether one chooses to believe that he is a brilliant and prophetic architect of futuristic biology or merely a misguided and nutty theorist, there can be no doubt about the astonishing magnitude of his intellect.

February 2005

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Comments

  • Question about the process
    Guest (Eddie Zeng) on 11/22/2005 at 10:38 AM
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    1
    If this would be possible, will the process leave you exactly the same as when you were treated?  For instance, if this process were applied to children, they will remain that way and if applied to the elderly, they will stay that way as well?  Or maybe there is an equilibrium age like say around 20 or something where old people just &quotgrow&quot back into their former selves?
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • m33p m33p
      Guest (gobbeldy BEEEEP!!!) on 07/05/2006 at 12:00 AM
      Posts:
      1
      Its prettty obvious. Growth and aging are two different things. The issue of the aging and weakening of the body is what is being addressed here.
      Rate this comment: 12345
  • age reversal
    Guest (Josh McNeil) on 12/06/2005 at 8:56 PM
    Posts:
    1
    hello, my nae is josh mcneil and I am a grade 10 student who is interested about learning about new information or ideas on this topic of age reversal. I was also wondering if there is any way that you can help, either by sending me emails about new information that arises about the topic or if I could some how contact Aubrey David Nicholas Jasper de Grey myself, about this because I look forward to following in his footsteps when I am of the age. I will look forward to this after my university years.

    My email adress is jhmc_07@hotmail.com

    I hope to hear from yu soon regarding this topic.

      Thank you, Sincerely yours
                                  Josh McNeil
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • stupid ending of article
      Guest (j keith) on 12/16/2005 at 10:47 PM
      Posts:
      1
      Nuland, why do you think we wont succeed?  I hope you die as you wish.  The rest of us are optimistic about living.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      • ...stupid ending of article response
        Guest (Peter Miller) on 01/19/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        1
        I can't stand these kind of responses to articles like this.  It's almost hostile.  The conclusion made sense if you read between the lines.  We have a major problem on this planet with resourses.  What would happen if people could live forever with the current reproduction rate?  We're a greedy species at best and this is just a glorified 'cosmetic surgery'.  Until we have the brains to work together in unison, we shouldnt be allowed to live forever. 
        Rate this comment: 12345
        • Peter Miller advocates murder
          Guest (Infinity) on 01/25/2006 at 12:00 AM
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          1
          We shouldn't be allowed to live forever? No need to read "between the lines" in Peter Miller's post. Peter Miller advocates murder.
          Rate this comment: 12345
        • response to response to stupid ending of article
          Guest (Joe) on 04/23/2006 at 12:00 AM
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          1
          I completely agree with Peter.  You do just have to read between the lines a bit.
          Rate this comment: 12345
        • Re: ...stupid ending of article response
          thewizard on 03/08/2008 at 1:37 PM
          Posts:
          3
          Avg Rating:
          1/5
          YOUR RESPONSE IS NATURAL FOR A PERSON OF IGNORANCE
          (NO INSULT INTENDED). I AM 78 AND HAVE BOTH TRAINING IN THEOLOGY (MINISTER FOR 41 YEARS) AS WELL AS IN QUANTUM PHYSICS. I AM CONDUCTING A FIVE
          WEEK SEMINAR END OF MAY, WHERE I COACH PEOPLE HOW
          TO BE 10-30 YEARS YOUNGER AND EXTEND THEIR LIFE FOR 10-30 YEARS. ALL BASED ON QUANTUM PHYSICS. THOSE MEDICAL SCIENTISTS DO RESEARCH ON ANIMALS,
          I DO THE REAL THING - REJUVENATION AND LIFE EXTENSION IN YOUTHFUL EXUBERANCE NOT 20-30 YEARS
          FROM TODAY, BUT IN MAY 0F 2008,
          Karoly Fuevessy,
          fountainofyouthwizard@gmail.com
          Rate this comment: 12345
        • Re: ...stupid ending of article response
          tonyreno on 05/07/2008 at 5:13 AM
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          4
          Avg Rating:
          5/5
          We don't have a major problem with resources. There's abot 3,000 miles of planet directly beneath the feet of every person, right where they stand.

          We do have a problem with people wanting things that they are unwilling to work hard enough to earn. But when people do decide to do the work there's plenty there for many more people, many many times as many people are there are there now.

          It take a little more work to get better at living renewably, but we are already far better at it than our much vaunted ancestors.

          Also keep in mind that not-dying does not add to the population. Not-dying only keeps the population the same.

          It was a stupid ending to the article.  You have to read way way way between the lines to find some reason why not dying is a bad thing.  It's like calling up, down.  Not-dying staying young is one of those things that only a person with no imagination at all could favor.

          Now if you want to extend that argument to not having children (I don't, by the way) then you might have an argument.  But there is no argument made anywhere in the article that made any sensible connection between staying young and the world somehow getting worse for that.
          Rate this comment: 12345
    • do u want to live forever...
      Guest (f.leblanc) on 01/01/2006 at 9:25 PM
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      1
      After watching a.degrey on cbs 60 minutes tonight, a quick google search turned up ur site.  I really appreciate your assessment, but not ur conclusion. adg looks, acts, and talks like either a throwback to the 60s hippies or a man ahead of his times. time will tell. what gets done when u stir the stew is often a better mix than the status quo ante.  looks like a man to watch, in more ways than one.  wonder whos enemies list he is on?

      Thanks for ur article.  hope u followup on some of the ethical issues involved.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      • Re: do u want to live forever...
        thewizard on 03/08/2008 at 1:54 PM
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        3
        Avg Rating:
        1/5
        YES, I WANT TO LIVE FOREVER AND I HAVE THE KNOWHOW
        AND IN ADDITION I AM CONDUCTING A FIVE WEEK SEMINAR ON HOW TO EXTEND YOUR LIFE 10, 20, 30 YEARS THIS COMING MAY/2008. ETHICS? WHAT DO YOU KNOW OF ETHICS ANYWAY. UNETHICAL IS TO DIE. IF YOU REALLY UNDERSTAND THE BIBLE OR TORA, YOU WOULD NOT BRING UP ETHICS.
        Karoly Fuevessy,
        fountainofyouthwizard@gmail.com
        Rate this comment: 12345
    • reversal?
      Guest (N.B.) on 05/10/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      1
      age reversal is, scientifically impossible. Imagine the complicated chem. reactions you'd have to process in order to undo what aging has done to cells... and then how and when do you stop it? (although it would be scientifically seen highly interesting to see what happens to sb. rewinded to a state before birth and what would happen in a state even before that...)
      Anyway, not only that, but would the cells survive it? taking the simple exsample of trying to clean a stain out, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, sometimes the stain spreads and sometimes you ruin the cloth...

      so much more to say, but it would go too far... anyway, incase you want to reply, my adress is GothicDray@web.de
      Rate this comment: 12345
      • reversal
        Guest (Dave) on 05/26/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        1
        Umm - so we do actually have very effective stain removers that don't harm - much less destroy cloth. The remover doesn't try to reverse the chemical process that created the stain. It just removes the junk as carefully as possible.
        Rate this comment: 12345
      • Re: reversal?
        thewizard on 03/08/2008 at 1:47 PM
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        3
        Avg Rating:
        1/5
        YES YOU TO KNOW NITHING OF QUANTUM PHYSICS (SEE MY
        REPLY OF 03/08/08. I AM NOT A GERENTOLOGIST OR
        MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL (THEY HOPE TO ETEND LIFE IN 20-30 YEARS). THE STORY OF "THE ELEPHANT AND THE
        FIVE BLIND MEN", DESCRIBES THE MEDICAL SCIENTISTS
        WELL. I AM CONDUCTING END OF MAY A FIVE WEEK
        SEMINAR, WHERE I REJUVENATE PARTICIPANTS 10-30
        YEARS IN REAL TIME NOW, NOT IN 20-30 YEARS.
        Karoly Fuevessy,
        fountainofyouthwizard@gmail.com
        Rate this comment: 12345
        • Re: reversal?
          jiggaj on 08/04/2008 at 3:14 PM
          Posts:
          1
          when you die (and you will) I hope I hear about it so I can laugh my ass off, you all-caps using nutjob. everyone reading this is going to die and there's nothing any of us can do about it (don't worry, I'll get mine too). not dying would be like never falling asleep -- impossible!
          Rate this comment: 12345
      • Re: reversal?
        tonyreno on 05/07/2008 at 5:18 AM
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        4
        Avg Rating:
        5/5
        It's not nearly as difficult as it sounds.

        Unlike cloths, cells have 2 big advantages over everything else.  With the exeception of brain cells, almost every other type of cell need only take an inventory, find the cells in the best shape, reproduce those, and kill off the others.

        There's nothing scientifically impossible about reversing aging. In fact, if it were impossible people would be unable to have children, or your childred would all be born with all the age damage that we have.

        It is a hard problem, but I don't think it is nearly as difficult for our technology, given de Grey's engineering approach, as it was for the 60s technology to make it to the moon.
        Rate this comment: 12345
  • Other methods of forever life
    Guest (J.c.) on 12/19/2005 at 4:26 AM
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    1
    To understand what is of us you need to open your evez and listen...Iam 21 male and will live forever until Iam ready to go.....The ideas I have are very real.  To success this will cost billons, but will make trillions.  I need the help of my self first to further my studies of forever life before I get sponsers.  You will see way before a 100 years in this life time it will happen.........Good day.
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • age reversal
    Guest (Josh McNeil) on 12/06/2005 at 8:56 PM
    Posts:
    1
    hello, my nae is josh mcneil and I am a grade 10 student who is interested about learning about new information or ideas on this topic of age reversal. I was also wondering if there is any way that you can help, either by sending me emails about new information that arises about the topic or if I could some how contact Aubrey David Nicholas Jasper de Grey myself, about this because I look forward to following in his footsteps when I am of the age. I will look forward to this after my university years.

    My email adress is jhmc_07@hotmail.com

    I hope to hear from yu soon regarding this topic.

      Thank you, Sincerely yours
                                  Josh McNeil
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • Computers, Quantum Mechanics, Rocket Science
    Guest (Craig Bruce) on 01/18/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    1
    A very interesting read. However i believe it would be perilous to deny the possibilities of developing such technologies. In terms of the history of man (say 2 million years) science is in its infancy, a hundred years ago space travel, quantum mechanics, micro-surgery and machines (computer technology) that can beat humans in chess would seem ludicrous. Perhaps the next 100 or 200 years will yield the "fountain of youth"?? At the very least, organ replacement and some cell regeneration....
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • Support.
      Guest (Eric) on 01/31/2006 at 12:00 AM
      Posts:
      1
      If anyone is persuing these goals, I am a Programmer greatly interested in helping the cause.  eric.leschinski@dualitystudios.com
      Rate this comment: 12345
  • Do you  have any  papers  in   Technology of Taught
    Guest (Dr.keyvan Abasi , M.D. / Ph.D.) on 02/04/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    1
    would  you please send me  some abstract of articles in
    " Technology of Taught "
    if  you have  please ?
    i'm keen interested in this case
    if you can  help me to get more information then i'd appreciate you
    yours faithfully  Dr keiyvan
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • my email !
      Guest ( Dr keiyvan) on 02/04/2006 at 12:00 AM
      Posts:
      1
      please send me every lectures in
      " Technology of Taught "
      by email to :
      NJ_SHAH14@YAHOO.COM
      Rate this comment: 12345
  • live forever
    Guest (patrick) on 02/05/2006 at 12:00 AM
    Posts:
    1
    after these seven wonders of the world are perfected., i think it will still be necessary to partake of the manna. i.e. Gold and silver excetera broken down into its monoatomic element and injested with pure water. creating no resistance to lifes energy force in the human body.
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • ignorance or malvolance?
    Guest (Mel) on 02/06/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    1
    so basically one should not propose and support any scientifical breakthrough unless the same one has ready solved any potential risks associated with the realization of such breakthrough. this article is manipulative and stating issues of seemingly common sense like pointing out some unclear problems to which it doesn't even nearly try to give an explanation or even deny a solution. seems to me an argumentation as emotionally driven as claimed to be in de grey's discours.
    point out all potential risks and that is good, assume failure in managing such risks and that is ignorance or, in case of informed people, plain malvolance.
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • Living forever?
    Guest (Jim G) on 04/15/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    1
    The question isn't whether we can live forever, but rather how we live each day of our lives!  Given the quality of life we often see around us, and the way people waste their lives, that is the greater challenge - for the overall human population anyway.
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • Long winded about De
    Guest on 05/05/2006 at 12:00 AM
    Posts:
    1
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • What a conclusion???
    Guest (Jairo Barbosa) on 05/11/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    1
    I am rather flabbergasted by Sherwin Nuland's conclusion... As a doctor - a specialist - he is not the right to be so closedminded.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • Questionable, opinionated conclusion...
      Guest (Kathy Rusniak) on 05/19/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      1
      Not only close-minded, but surprisingly emotional.  A completely unexpected conclusion that I think highly deviated from the main focus of the story, which I took in the beginning to be an anecdotal interview of a 'controversial' scientist. 
      Rate this comment: 12345
      • where is the confidence and faith in humanity?
        Guest (Markus) on 06/09/2006 at 12:00 AM
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        1
        I was surprised by the conclusion as well; why is the inability of the human race to handle immortality such a forgone conclusion?  And why in such a publication as Technology Review is there an article so very pessimistic about technology?

        We have and always will create technological monsters with horrible potential, but they don't outweigh all the good solutions that we have created as well.

        Progress will continue and indeed I believe one thing that makes us human is our hope that we can improve ourselves and our surroundings.
        Rate this comment: 12345
        • --
          Guest (David J) on 06/13/2006 at 12:00 AM
          Posts:
          1
          Rate this comment: 12345
    • Strange Conclusion
      Guest (Jeff) on 06/20/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      1
      Nuland, while I respect your right to voice your opinion, those last two paragraphs were a cancer on an otherwise beautifully articulated article.  Your opinion is overwhelmingly cynical and close minded.   It is regrettable that it co-exists with such an otherwise well-written article. Even reading between the lines, going back to the points you raised that if immortality became a reality there would be negative consequences.  The nature of survival is such that the species always adapts to change and I am convinced that humanity will adapt to immortality.  It simply has to.
      Rate this comment: 12345
  • Maybe not forever but...
    Guest (Frank Smith) on 06/10/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    1
    I want to live until I am ready to die.  Who has the right to deny me that?  Certainly not Sherwin Nuland.
    Rate this comment: 12345
  • Living Forever, Eternal Life
    Guest (Yossi) on 06/12/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    1
    Yes.
    This is what G-d originally and always intended for all humankind: So that He could "dwell", so to say, in this physical world, together with us. We need to show Him (and also, perhaps mainly ourselves) that we are really, truly worthy of His wonderful GIFT of life, that He continually grants us and the entire Universe every instant.  All that He wants from us that we should be eternally grateful and show a little respect for ourselves and creation.
    Let all Creation please thank the Only One True G-d Almighty for every single breath...
    Rate this comment: 12345
    • sppookky
      Guest (me) on 07/05/2006 at 12:00 AM
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      1
      He's right you know. My advice is to stop looking at everything from your ideological narrow-minded social perspective.
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  • true and evident
    Guest (Reaon) on 07/28/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    1
    For every second we live and with our own very step, we continuiously enter unsuitable condisions for the essence of life to thrive, grow and evolve. The world of our own creation deteriates ower mind, spirit and bodys. With every new generation our minds are farbeyond that of the last generation. We are a spicies of beauty and perfection, and we have the capability of growing phsically and mentaly past everyones dreams, unfortunetly the conditions,process and dedication that we would have to be endured is to hard to instantly be put to play but fortunetly we are aloud faith in this to help lead our generations to the fullest of human potential. who knows what ower spicies will grow to form into. oh wait, were saposed to put ower beliefs straight to the bible.
    Email ReaonIam@hotmail.com for discussion, but not about religion.
    thanx
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  • Resources are not excuses
    Guest (jmviggi) on 08/07/2006 at 12:00 AM
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    1
    With the coming revolution of nanotechnology, the possibilities of reproducing resources will become more than graspable. I believe that humanity should be more than optimistic and open about the technologies and new inventions that could perpetuate and enhance our existence. Living forever is the long-held dream of ancient myths, science fiction, futurists, and even religion. I, myself, want to extend and expand my life infinitely.

    PEACE
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  • immortality, adaptability and progress
    jak177 on 08/17/2006 at 9:03 AM
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    1
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    While I enjoyed reading an exceptionally well written article I found the ending excessively cynical and pessimistic. Progress will come whether we like it or not. If history has taught us anything, it is that if something can be done it will be done by someone somewhere. Out of all the time the human species has had on our world, it is really in the last couple hundred years that great progress has been made. However our science is still in its infancy. If all the technical aspects with regard to immortality are finally resolved, I believe human kind will not only adapt to immortality but such an achievement will provide the catalyst to spur even greater progress. Just think if individuals of the likes of Isaac Newton could have lived for 400 years, surely more physics could be understood to enable mankind to get off this world, go and populate other worlds and thus solve the issue of overpopulation. The problem now is just by the time an individual has mastered his field and is just about ready to really start applying his hard won knowledge to higher goals, he is already in decline. Immortality  will still not protect an individual from external causes such as distructive weapons but I for one am all for as many people as possible working toward making the human species immortal. Even though is appears that De Grey has not wholly grasped the enormity of the challenges involved in the vision that he proposes, it would be foolish to dismiss him. His MPrize initiative is just the type of incentive needed for breakthroughs to be made. Just as the XPrize has spurred progress and interest in space travel, so will the MPrize and other such initiatives further progress in the challenges toward the goal of immortality. People like De Gray provide the focus that humankind needs to work toward a clear goal. More optimism in the future is needed ... please !

    MKM
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