Why hydrogen might not power future vehicles and lithium-based batteries might.
The need to reduce carbon emissions and to find a long-term replacement for oil has many people looking at hydrogen fuel cells to power factories and vehicles. But finding ways to store volatile hydrogen safely and bring down the costs of fuel-cell ingredients, which currently include the fantastically expensive element platinum, has proved difficult.
While the quest for the affordable fuel cell continues, many environment-conscious consumers have been turning to hybrid cars to reduce emissions. At the heart of the hybrid is a technology that may be less "sexy" than fuel cells, but, according to MIT's Donald Sadoway, could be key to a fossil-fuel-free tomorrow -- the rechargeable battery.
TechnologyReview.com's nanotechnology and materials science editor, Kevin Bullis, recently talked with Sadoway, a professor in the department of materials science and engineering. He holds 13 patents, has received multiple teaching awards, and has published more than 100 papers on the future of batteries and the all-electric car.
Technology Review: Why did you get into battery research?
Donald Sadoway: What got me into this in the first place was the desire to get rid of the internal combustion engine. As far as powering portable devices and so on, there are business opportunities there, but I don't get excited about it. I did not get into this line of research because I wanted to help somebody talk 30 percent longer on his cell phone.
TR: Why get rid of the internal combustion engine?
DS: The real problem is greenhouse gas accumulation in the atmosphere. If we don't start dealing with that question, the rest doesn’t make a damn bit of difference -- if 25 years from now the general temperature of the United States is 10 degrees Fahrenheit higher and the oceans are four feet [higher]. We really need to think about sustainable ways of generating electric power and then moving [around] as much as we can without burning carbon.
TR: What about using fuel cells for vehicles to reduce emissions?
DS: I don't believe in fuel cells for portable power. I think it's a dumb idea. The good news is: they burn hydrogen with oxygen to produce electricity, and only water vapor is the byproduct. The bad news is: you have to deal with molecular hydrogen gas, and that's what's stymieing the research and in my opinion is always going to stymie the research.
That's why I don't work on fuel cells. Where's the infrastructure? Where are we going to get hydrogen from? Hydrogen is a molecule, it's H2. To break it apart, to get H+, you've got to go from H2 to H, and that covalent bond is very strong. To break that bond you have to catalyze the reaction, and guess what the catalyst is? It's noble metals -- platinum and palladium. Have you seen the price of platinum? Lithium [for lithium ion batteries] is expensive. But it's not like platinum. Lithium right now is probably $40 a pound. Platinum is $500 an ounce. If I could give the fuel-cell guys platinum for $40 a pound, they would be carrying me around on their shoulders until the day I die.
Guest (Marvin Milewits)
Assuming a near perfect battery, has anybody looked at the amount of green gas that will still be coming from the unility power plants (the source of the recharging current).
It seems we are going from many small decentralized sources of polution (gasoline engines) to few large centralized sources of polution (Utility stations). I havent done the arithmetic, but is the former way better??
Regards,
Marvin
Guest (Marcos Mendez)
Placing pollution controls on a coal or oil or gas fired electrical plant is far easier and cheaper than placing them on millions of vehicles. Owners of these plants are people just like you and me and when they understand the economic benefits of placing these controls on their plants then they do it. We have cleaner plants today than fifty years ago and they can get even cleaner.
Guest (Bill Gilwood)
If cars use, say 30 times the energy of houses, then how many more power plants will have to be built? And what about the CO2 emmissions from theses plants?
Well have to move people far more efficiently, and probably less, and power plants will have to be far more efficient than now and use non-fossil fuel such as nuclear (proliferation risk) or renewables (i.e. solar in its various incarnations).
Guest (Ryan Fulcher)
Anyone seen the Tzero, which does 300 miles on "old" Lithium tech?
Guest (Ryan Fulcher)
oops, perhaps I got the security code wrong.
Well lost the lengthy post I made... Safice it to say that even old lithium technology is probably capable of entering the vehicle market, so long as safty issues are addressed. New lithium tech is great and will allow for smaller more powerfull packs suted for hybrids. This may mean that Plug-in Hybrids are further delayed as theres not much use in charging a small sub 1 kWh battery. Although perhaps the freedom of Lithium over the restrictions of current NiMH IP will allow for larger capacity cells to be "legally" produced for vehicle applications. Anyway, I rather enjoy the little 10Ah 96 cell Li-ion pack I built for my 24v scooter, and many other Li based EVs are out there strutting their stuff, Im encouraged...
http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/Li#BEVs_using_Lithium
Guest (Ryan Fulcher)
oops, perhaps I got the security code wrong.
Well lost the lengthy post I made... Safice it to say that even old lithium technology is probably capable of entering the vehicle market, so long as safty issues are addressed. New lithium tech is great and will allow for smaller more powerfull packs suted for hybrids. This may mean that Plug-in Hybrids are further delayed as theres not much use in charging a small sub 1 kWh battery. Although perhaps the freedom of Lithium over the restrictions of current NiMH IP will allow for larger capacity cells to be "legally" produced for vehicle applications. Anyway, I rather enjoy the little 10Ah 96 cell Li-ion pack I built for my 24v scooter, and many other Li based EVs are out there strutting their stuff, Im encouraged...
http://www.seattleeva.org/wiki/Li#BEVs_using_Lithium
Guest (Ryan Fulcher)
Anyone seen the Tzero, which does 300 miles on "old" Lithium tech?
Guest (Bill Gilwood)
If cars use, say 30 times the energy of houses, then how many more power plants will have to be built? And what about the CO2 emmissions from theses plants?
Well have to move people far more efficiently, and probably less, and power plants will have to be far more efficient than now and use non-fossil fuel such as nuclear (proliferation risk) or renewables (i.e. solar in its various incarnations).
Guest (paul)
First if we go from many cars to a few power plants that is a plus because a few power plants are a lot easier to make efficient and clean that a couple million cars. Second, electricity can be produced by clean methods. Solar, Wind, Wave, Cleaner Coal. Your question is a very common question and through the research and comments from different envirnment experts that I have read I believe that it will be very benificial to get off of fossil fuels and on to Plug in Hybrid vehicles. Check out calcars.org for more info.
Guest (Marcos Mendez)
Placing pollution controls on a coal or oil or gas fired electrical plant is far easier and cheaper than placing them on millions of vehicles. Owners of these plants are people just like you and me and when they understand the economic benefits of placing these controls on their plants then they do it. We have cleaner plants today than fifty years ago and they can get even cleaner.
Guest (paul)
First if we go from many cars to a few power plants that is a plus because a few power plants are a lot easier to make efficient and clean that a couple million cars. Second, electricity can be produced by clean methods. Solar, Wind, Wave, Cleaner Coal. Your question is a very common question and through the research and comments from different envirnment experts that I have read I believe that it will be very benificial to get off of fossil fuels and on to Plug in Hybrid vehicles. Check out calcars.org for more info.
Guest (Grant Callaghan)
How do plants break the H2 bond? I doubt they need precious metals. If they can do it, we can do it.
Guest (Bunsen)
The easy answer is that they use a powerplant thousands of times the scale of an automotive powerplant. Scale and cost issues are too prohibitive to make a Tu Quoque sort of statement about power capability. Also, I'm fairly sure you don't want your car's powerplant to cost approximately $20 million.
Guest (Neil Farbstein)
Vulvox Nano/biotechnology Corporation is devloping a lithium ion battery that builds upon technology devloped at a DOE lab
that will be capapble of storing
3.9 amps per kg. And we are working on designs that will be able to charge up to maximum capapcity in under ten minutes and keep that charge indifinitely. Altair has released datat about a low capacity cell that charges in five minutes but it loses its charge completely wo days.
We expect our battery to compete sucessfully with Alatirs product and with fuel cells enabling construction of all electric vehicles with long range travel capabilities and of course, laptops that go much longer before
they require a recharge.
Investors and Corporatios that want a partnership are encouraged to contact Neil Farbstein at 516-921-5058
or at protn7@att.net
Our lithium ion battery prohgram is featured on our webpage at
http://vulvoxnanobio.tripod.com
Guest (Vincent Gaetano)
I found the article very interesting. However, to make the statement: "the rest doesn’t make a damn bit of difference if 25 years from now the general temperature of the United States is 10 degrees Fahrenheit higher and the oceans are four feet [higher]." is a bit over-stated. As a reader I would find the information in the article more appealing if these type of off-handed remarks were not thrown in.
Guest (Marvin Milewits)
Assuming a near perfect battery, has anybody looked at the amount of green gas that will still be coming from the unility power plants (the source of the recharging current).
It seems we are going from many small decentralized sources of polution (gasoline engines) to few large centralized sources of polution (Utility stations). I havent done the arithmetic, but is the former way better??
Regards,
Marvin
Guest (Grant Callaghan)
How do plants break the H2 bond? I doubt they need precious metals. If they can do it, we can do it.
Guest (Neil Farbstein)
Vulvox Nano/biotechnology Corporation is devloping a lithium ion battery that builds upon technology devloped at a DOE lab
that will be capapble of storing
3.9 amps per kg. And we are working on designs that will be able to charge up to maximum capapcity in under ten minutes and keep that charge indifinitely. Altair has released datat about a low capacity cell that charges in five minutes but it loses its charge completely wo days.
We expect our battery to compete sucessfully with Alatirs product and with fuel cells enabling construction of all electric vehicles with long range travel capabilities and of course, laptops that go much longer before
they require a recharge.
Investors and Corporatios that want a partnership are encouraged to contact Neil Farbstein at 516-921-5058
or at protn7@att.net
Our lithium ion battery prohgram is featured on our webpage at
http://vulvoxnanobio.tripod.com
Guest (Mike Cloutier)
It has never made much sense to me why we don't expore much further, the huge potential for all electric modes of transportation. Further, is it possible to use recent advances in photovoltaics to help reduce loads or build nano based rechargeable materials that also serve the automobile's infrastructure?
Guest (Todd Gruhn)
The proliferation risk has been solved -- it is called the Pebble Bed Modular Reactor. In principle you can get this thing to burn Thorium which is fertile.
Manufacturing in the United States is in trouble. That's bad news not just for the country's economy but for the future of innovation.
Our list of the 50 most innovative companies, including the following:
On Twitter
Become a Fan on Facebook
Subscribe to the Feed
Guest (Vincent Gaetano)
The Lithium Economy
I found the article very interesting. However, to make the statement: "the rest doesn’t make a damn bit of difference if 25 years from now the general temperature of the United States is 10 degrees Fahrenheit higher and the oceans are four feet [higher]." is a bit over-stated. As a reader I would find the information in the article more appealing if these type of off-handed remarks were not thrown in.
Reply
Guest (Glen Rains)
Electricity Source
I understand the stance on the expense of hydrogen catalysts. But what about the source of the eletricity to charge these batteries? Is he counting on nuclear fusion to power the electrical grid? Otherwise, we are just pumping out more greenhouse gases from coal-powered plants.
Reply
Guest (Bill)
The Lithium Economy by Vincent Gaetano
The beauty of electricity is that it can be produced from a multitude of sources, ultra clean to ultra dirty and it can be produced locally (household solar panels being an example of one source) to centrally (gas, coal or nuclear plants). We lose upwards of 50% of power generated at central powerplants through pumping losses to get it to your home for consumption. Batteries can help cut this loss significantly by providing reserve power at point of use which can buffer against strong demand during peak loads. There are HUGE savings that can be reaped by not constructing facilities to meet peak requirements.
Also, dont even get me started on how I feel about driving a car whose principal powerplant was a derivate of a steam engine invented in the 1800s. What ever happened to the simple Wankel, or the Stirling engines, much less the electic? Were so wedded to ancient technology that its not funny. No wonder were losing market share in almost everything.
Reply
Guest (Glen Rains)
Electricity Source
I understand the stance on the expense of hydrogen catalysts. But what about the source of the eletricity to charge these batteries? Is he counting on nuclear fusion to power the electrical grid? Otherwise, we are just pumping out more greenhouse gases from coal-powered plants.
Reply
Guest (Bill)
The Lithium Economy by Vincent Gaetano
The beauty of electricity is that it can be produced from a multitude of sources, ultra clean to ultra dirty and it can be produced locally (household solar panels being an example of one source) to centrally (gas, coal or nuclear plants). We lose upwards of 50% of power generated at central powerplants through pumping losses to get it to your home for consumption. Batteries can help cut this loss significantly by providing reserve power at point of use which can buffer against strong demand during peak loads. There are HUGE savings that can be reaped by not constructing facilities to meet peak requirements.
Also, dont even get me started on how I feel about driving a car whose principal powerplant was a derivate of a steam engine invented in the 1800s. What ever happened to the simple Wankel, or the Stirling engines, much less the electic? Were so wedded to ancient technology that its not funny. No wonder were losing market share in almost everything.
Reply