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Making Electric Vehicles Practical

Continued from page 1

By Kevin Bullis

Monday, March 31, 2008
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The plan is particularly suited for small countries such as Israel and Denmark. All of the infrastructure needed in Israel can easily be paid for with the money that Project Better Place has already raised, Agassi says. The economics are attractive in other ways. Both countries have very high gas prices--more than $7 a gallon. The countries also have tax policies that heavily favor electric vehicles. In Israel, conventional cars have a sales tax of 72 percent, while electric cars are only taxed at 10 percent. In Denmark, the difference is even bigger. The government collects a tax of 150 percent on conventional cars, while electric cars are tax-free. As a result, Agassi says, a typical sedan in Denmark costs $60,000, while an electric car will cost just $20,000.

To work in the United States, Agassi says, the approach would need to be implemented at the city or state level, since the country is so much larger. It would be fairly easy, he says, to install recharging grids in cities and, particularly on the East Coast, to connect the cities with swapping stations. He says that higher gas prices will also make the economics more favorable.

Not everyone agrees that the company's approach can work in the United States. Menahem Anderman, a highly regarded automotive-battery consultant and the founder of Advanced Automotive Batteries, says that the approach will be expensive, and that battery swapping can damage the batteries, reducing their life and reliability.

Regardless of the future of the technology in larger countries, Project Better Place is now getting its first project under way in Israel, working with utilities on a plan to build its recharging grid. Agassi predicts that results will be fast. He projects that in Israel, within 10 years, electric cars will outsell conventional vehicles.

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batteries electric cars energy

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  • [no subject]
     
    Rate this comment: 12345

    hachi
    03/31/2008
    Posts:10
    Avg Rating:
    3/5
    • Re: Wunderbar
      The "Think" car people are proposing something similar, with battery leases for $X per month. They also have a plan for batteries that have passed useful lifespan in the car. They have solar and wind grids in their workspaces and put the older batteries to work there, in less critical uses.

      Interesting times ahead. I just hope the US congress gets with the program and stops pushing biofuels.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      bj
      03/31/2008
      Posts:38
      Avg Rating:
      3/5
  • >>> happy to see that MY idea of (swappable batteries) "cellphoneCAR" may come true soon, but... >>>
    .

    happy to see that MY idea of (swappable batteries) "cellphoneCAR" may come true soon...

    UN-happy to see that (again) the venture capitals are rewarding (with $200 million!) the "non-inventors" of a (good) commercial/industrial idea that I've suggested and published EIGHT months ago in my (July 23, 2007) "Cellphone Battery Electric Cars" article:

    http://www.gaetanomarano.it/articles/033cellphoneCAR.html

    then posted/discussed (in the days/weeks after my article) on several scientific and environment forums in Europe and America, commenting MIT Technology Review articles, on the Wired Science blog, News.com and Scientific American articles and blogs, etc. (just do a Google search with the "cellphonecar" keyword to find some of them)

    that's what already happened with MY """"Google"""" Lunar X Prize...

    http://www.ghostnasa.com/posts/008moonprize.html

    also the idea of a wind energy battery recharge come from my article (as you can verify from cached Google pages) ... "To save the high amount of energy lost on the transfer from the power plants, all "refuel stations" located away from urban areas could have their own solar or wind energy power plants (like my "Wind Energy Skyscrapers") to recharge the cars' batteries (24h a day 365d a year) at (nearly) ZERO costs!"

    and (I'm sure) that the same thing will happen (soon) with MY "Wind Energy Skyscrapers Power Plants" idea:

    http://www.gaetanomarano.it/articles/028energy.html

    .
    Rate this comment: 12345

    Gaetano Mara...
    03/31/2008
    Posts:139
    Avg Rating:
    2/5
    • Re: >>> happy to see that MY idea of (swappable batteries) "cellphoneCAR" may come true soon, but... >>>
      haven't you heard of such a thing as a patent ??
      without that you have no ownership - besides there are a lot of duplicate ideas popping up right now since the whole world is thinking about and researching this stuff.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      VCRAGAIN
      03/31/2008
      Posts:35
      Avg Rating:
      4/5
    • Re: >>> happy to see that MY idea of (swappable batteries) "cellphoneCAR" may come true soon, but... >>>
      Dude,

      You can rest assured that this idea preceded your article eight months ago.  They have been discussing the plans for years.  It's only reaching mass media at this point b/c it finally has reached the "it's actually going to happen" stage.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      jgillece
      03/31/2008
      Posts:2
    • Re: >>> happy to see that MY idea of (swappable batteries) "cellphoneCAR" may come true soon, but... >>>
      I think replacing batteries is a rather generic idea.  I seem to remember replacing a few over the years.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      oconnmic
      03/31/2008
      Posts:21
      Avg Rating:
      4/5
    • Re: not YOUR idea
      Dear Gaetano, many people, including myself, have proposed for years the battery swapping stations for electric cars. These would be phased in at existing gas stations, so they don't require a massive and sudden infrastucture change.

      So this is a public idea. Definitely NOT YOURS.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      gabrielg01
      04/01/2008
      Posts:418
      Avg Rating:
      3/5
      • Re: YOU missed the point of my article
        .

        since the batteries of an electric car was not, aren't and never will be "fused" with the cars, we can always say that all them was/are/will be "swappable"...

        you completely missed the point of my article, since my suggestion is not only to swap the batteries, but to build a "system" around them to allow the electric cars to (finally) compete with gasoline cars

        now you can change the batteries of an electric car at the end of the battery life, but not as easy as a cellphone

        my idea (and the idea of this new startup company with the help of Renault) is to develop a STANDARD swappable battery, then put it on all cars as first battery (or sell the cars without a battery) then swap them quickly at thousands "electric-gas" stations

        then, if all electric cars makers will standardize the batteries dimensions, connectors and swap system, every car of the world can (simply) swap the batteries in minutes (like happen today with a gasoline refuel) rather than wait 4+ hours to recharge them at home or office to have another 100 km. of autonomy

        my additional idea (now applied by the new startup) is to produce the energy to recharge the batteries nearly each "electric-gas" station with wind turbines or solar panels, that to avoid the need to build too big, complex and expensive infrastructures to carry that extra-energy for cars

        .
        Rate this comment: 12345

        Gaetano Mara...
        04/02/2008
        Posts:139
        Avg Rating:
        2/5
        • Re: YOU missed the point of my article
          Sorry to wake you up to reality...

          Our idea was to have a standardized battery system across all manufacturers, too. You are not the only person around with ideas.

          The proposal called/calls for (at least) 2 batteries in each car. The cars would run down the batteries in sequential fashion. So when battery #1 is discharged, the driver still has battery #2 at full power. This allows the driver to get to a swapping station.

          On a side note, nobody stops you from implementing "your" idea. Stop whining, and start doing!
          Rate this comment: 12345

          gabrielg01
          04/02/2008
          Posts:418
          Avg Rating:
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  • 1 M outlets and 250+ robotic swappers for $200M?
    $200M in additional venture capital raised in 2007.

    Between Israel and Denmark, 1 Million "outlets" and 250+ robotic battery swap-out stations?  $200M sounds low for that size of project.

    No mention of any (very costly) additional electric utility power generation plants?  Nor the additional CO2 produced from coal?  All the (additional) MWs of power needed to recharge motor vehicles within the current maximum capacity - especially for the time of day - daylight business hours?
    Rate this comment: 12345

    nekote
    03/31/2008
    Posts:139
    Avg Rating:
    3/5
    • Re: 1 M outlets and 250+ robotic swappers for $200M?
      The $200 million from 2007 is for Israel. Additional funds are being raised for Denmark.

      As you mention, the number of power plants you need depends a great deal on when the batteries get charged. A smart system would actually use the cars to help the electricity grid. The cars can charge primarily at night when demand is usually low. When demand is high in the afternoon, the cars could feed power back to the grid.
      Rate this comment: 12345

      Kevin Bullis
      03/31/2008
      Posts:101
      Avg Rating:
      4/5
      • Re: 1 M outlets and 250+ robotic swappers for $200M?
        In that case, it would seem like the electric distribution system will require substantial upgrades to electronic equipment in addition to advanced metering infrastructure for two-way power flow in the EV receptacles.  That is a challenging task, which the Israeli electric utilities would need to support.
        Rate this comment: 12345

        energymv@gma...
        05/15/2008
        Posts:5
        Avg Rating:
        5/5
  • Development of the Resources of the Demand Side
    “Making Electric Vehicles Practical” is just one more application of the development of the resources of the demand side that need the involvement of the utility and the regulator, which are the authorized intermediaries that are blocking progress to the power industry of the third industrial revolution. The problem with today’s market structure is that it centers on the development of the resources of the supply side.--//--//--//--//-- This is what Toby Considine wrote about many other applications in his article Intelligent Grids need Intelligent Buildings, “Current market structures are a boat anchor on innovation. If you invent a gizmo that talks to the power grid and somehow saves energy in the house, today, you can only sell it to around 30 customers – all big power companies. Each of them will be required to run an extensive pilot before they can get anything through their local Utilities Commission. This means your initial sale will have to be, say, 50,000 units warranted for 10 years. Then after a year installing those units, the power company can propose a rate structure for them The Utilities Commission may nix the whole project, or ask for more research.” Using Toby’s input I wrote recently the EWPC article Missing From Gridwise (this refers to the GridWise Architectural Council). --//--//--//--//-- EWPC is a technology neutral market structure that emerged at the beginning of 2007 to allow innovations on the demand side to prosper. The last EWPC article is EWPC’s Tipping Point, whose summary is: “Aiming to be an irresistible article, it should help start a word-of-mouth epidemic of high proportions in the power industry. By respectfully exposing, and responding inquiries, the insidious power of IMEUC False Facts to obstruct progress, it is one of those little things that can make a big difference. Now all stakeholders will be able to learn how Demand Integration to power system planning, operation and control, brings the clarity and direction of the breakthough EWPC market architecture and design paradigm shift to produce large coordination savings for society as a whole. I repeat that ‘California has a great opportunity to repair the damages of the BIG California LIE to the world.’”
    Rate this comment: 12345

    javs
    03/31/2008
    Posts:95
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  • Electric vehicles and Setbacks
    A sound innovation that could possibly
    transform the entire transportation industry.
    A major concern at this point in time
    is how to overcome a whole span of
    limitations in terms of safety and risk
    factors,EMF sustainability and its transient
    nature,etc.. to mention just a few.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    martinaatayo
    03/31/2008
    Posts:45
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    3/5
  • Start in Alaska
    When I lived in Alaska, 25 years ago, there was already an outlet for every parking place so you could plug in your car's circulating hot water heater in the winter to keep your engine from freezing.  
    Rate this comment: 12345

    oconnmic
    03/31/2008
    Posts:21
    Avg Rating:
    4/5
  • What about the capacity for electric distribution
    Assuming there is enough reserve capacity to do this, it sounds like a wonderful idea. But is there enough reserve capacity?

    The business model is creative, but is the current electric distribution capacity enough to accommodate an expansion of the this EV infrastructure beyond this pilot project of 125 or so stations?
    Rate this comment: 12345

    energymv@gma...
    05/15/2008
    Posts:5
    Avg Rating:
    5/5
    • Re: What about the capacity for electric distribution
      Not yet, but in 5-8 yrs. focusfusion.org could be supplying 5MW generators at $300,000 per. They could profitably sell power for less than 1/3¢/kwh.

      They're about the size of a home garage, including walk-around maintenance floor space, and so would make great cores for charging stations. Just to give some scale, the 2600lb Tesla Roadster gets 220 mi on about 60kwh charge, so a 100 mi. charge-up at these stations would cost about 30x.3¢ = 9¢. Added charges for convenience/access would increase that, of course, and speed of charging would depend on how many amps at 220V or more the car could accept. 220V70A charging takes the Roadster 3½hrs for the full 60kwh, so 1 hr would give about 25kwh; at higher amperage, say 400, this could be cut to 10 min or so, but requires special connectors and feeds. This is where a charging station with its own FF generator would have a huge advantage.



      Rate this comment: 12345

      Brian H
      06/02/2008
      Posts:37
      Avg Rating:
      4/5
  • [no subject]
    The trouble with electric cars has always been two-fold; driving range and re-charge time. The new line of Phoenix electric vehicles claims to have addressed at least the re-charge side of the problem in a most dramatic way. And also it has great projector headlights to help you more in safety driving.
    Rate this comment: 12345

    MickeyFouse
    02/11/2009
    Posts:47
    Avg Rating:
    1/5
  • Charging station at places of work
    Actually building charging stations at places of work and paying for a car by miles is a neat idea.
    This is the type of model I am planning for the pemmPOD. This is a solar/electric car which works as a PC, Media station, office work station and a personal emotional mobile. It can also power the home during a blackout. Please check it out at
    http://tinyurl.com/ybh6tqo
    Rate this comment: 12345

    dancrissco
    12/15/2009
    Posts:35
    Avg Rating:
    4/5
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