A More Efficient Engine

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• 	WHAT ABOUT THIS IN... advill on 08/03/2007 at 4:37 AM
  Posts: 13 Avg Rating:	A wankel engine?, as other reseach using a dual injection system (gasolina and etanol), the principle of engine efficiency is based in drastic increase of compresion ratio to 20:1 instead of actual 8:1. A rotatory engine can handle this sistem more efficiently than a reciprocal and reduce engine size keeping HP. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	Electric Motors Still 3x Better dtmille2 on 08/03/2007 at 8:21 AM
  Posts: 5 Avg Rating:	Typical electric vehicle motors still operate above the 90% efficiency mark, so I think that they will win in the end.  For a good comparison between an electric drive train and other types of drive trains for a given amount of energy input, take a look at this slideshow (click on "view presentation" button to bring up slides: http://www.teslamotors.com/blog2/?p=25 Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better RichardL on 08/03/2007 at 9:10 AM

    Posts: 3 Avg Rating:

    First let me state that I'm not a automotive engineer, just someone who finds the topic interesting. Even though electrical is more efficient, you still have to generate that power.  Until someone develops a battery pack that delivers 400 miles per charge and the cost is comparative to gas, it'll never find more than a toe hold in the market.  What I don't understand is why a smaller battery pack isn't put into a car (able to hold, say a charge to carry the car 20 miles) and then a ultra efficient engine is used to charge the battery.  If many of the energy efficient concepts were used (say, HCCI and  BMW's new 6 stroke concept that is due out in the next couple of years), I don't see why getting 60mpg OR MORE isn't possible out of a midsize car.  The battery pack would be nothing but a buffer between the engine and the drivetrain, allowing the engine to operate within a narrow band for best efficiency.  As best I know, no one's doing this so I suspect that I'm over simplifying the issue.  So, what is it that I'm missing? Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better kearns on 08/03/2007 at 9:50 AM

      Posts: 27 Avg Rating:

      The technology you refer to is what Toyota is pursuing with the "pluggable" hybrid.  The battery pack has been substantially increased allowing the car to run about 10 miles before the gasoline engine kicks in.  The plans are to increase the range substantially.  At night the car can be plugged into the home's house current to use the household electricity to drive the first 10 miles. Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better dtmille2 on 08/03/2007 at 1:17 PM

      Posts: 5 Avg Rating:

      I would agree that electric cars need to be cheaper with comparable performance in terms of speed and acceleration, but I think the range is more of an perceived issue than a real one. I know not everyone is like this, but I probably drive more than 200 miles in a single day 5 or 6 times a year, if that.  I would be glad to have an electric car to drive during my normal commute + errands, etc., and then use our other car, or even rent another car, for longer trips.  With no oil changes, no fill-ups (plug in at night though), no problems with mufflers, catalytic converters, or all of the other heat- and vibration-related wear on the vehicle, electric vehicles may be very easy to own and operate, and very desireable--even without a full tank of gas range.  I guess time will tell . . . Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • 	Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better drm237 on 08/03/2007 at 1:51 PM
      Posts: 1	Check out http://www.chevrolet.com/electriccar/ Due out by 2010 I think. Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • 	Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better maverick on 08/04/2007 at 1:15 AM
      Posts: 4 Avg Rating:	If you are going for a shorter charge, why not just plug in a lot of high capacity capacitors?  They wont wear out as quickly and are probably safer than using chemical batteries.  I also suppose you could get higher discharge rate than what a given battery can provide. Rate this comment: (Reply)

      • Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better dtmille2 on 08/04/2007 at 11:04 AM

        Posts: 5 Avg Rating:

        Ultracapacitors will truly change the game if they can be developed to deliver enough energy and power.  For now I know that ultracap's are being used in some smaller, shorter-range EV's.  TechReview did a story earlier this year on a company called EEStor, which is in this industry and has shown some promise in developing the technology. Ultracaps could potentially endure millions of discharge cycles, and be recharged in seconds to minutes--more quickly and easily than filling up your tank. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor Rate this comment: (Reply)

        • 	Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better maverick on 08/04/2007 at 8:47 PM
          Posts: 4 Avg Rating:	Hey thanks for the link, I have always wondered what has been holding capacitors back, I guess the market has been focusing too much in other areas and just needed more of an impetus to go back to an old technology. Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better CarlHitchon on 10/16/2007 at 1:23 AM

      Posts: 14 Avg Rating:

      Most people drive less than 40 mile/day.  E.g. I have a 30 mile round trip commute.  A commuting car that gets 40 miles on a charge would do the trick for me.  If you need a long range, you can use another vehical.  If everyone with less than a 40 mile commute used electic, there would be a large savings.  Central electric power generation is much more efficent that auto engines.  Besides there are alternate ways to get that power. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • 	Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better theyodes on 08/03/2007 at 9:46 AM
    Posts: 1 Avg Rating:	Unfortunately, there are 70% losses in generating electricity so electric motors are nice, but electric powered vehicles total energy consumption ends up being lower efficiency than gasoline / internal combusions engines. Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • 	Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better enoch on 08/03/2007 at 12:44 PM
      Posts: 3 Avg Rating:	70% losses?, where did you get this piece of misinformation Rate this comment: (Reply)

      • 	Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better rdg8650 on 08/06/2007 at 8:23 AM
        Posts: 1	Older power plants have a 30% rate of converting the energy in the fuel to electricity (due to losses in the process). The newer plants are approching 40%. Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • 	Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better dtmille2 on 08/03/2007 at 1:10 PM
      Posts: 5 Avg Rating:	Yeah, I don't understand where your losses come in.  Any clarification? Rate this comment: (Reply)

    • Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better dmm on 08/03/2007 at 3:23 PM

      Posts: 143 Avg Rating:

      Don't know where that 70% comes from, but remember that you also have to transport gasoline from refinery to gas tank.  Not to mention refining the gasoline out of the crude oil.  Not to mention shipping the crude from well to refinery.  Not to mention the considerable costs of finding, drilling, running, and protecting the oil wells, most of which seem to be located in either inhospitable or politically unstable areas. BUT!!!  For whatever reason, electric vehicles are currently very expensive.  The prices are downright shocking, so ordinary consumers are resistant to buying them. (Puns intended, but point is still valid.) People can make efficiency comparisons 'til they're blue in the face, but in the end the only thing that matters is cost.  A new Toyota Prius (hybrid) costs about $20K, while a new Honda Civic (nonhybrid) costs about $15K.  Driving them around the city, people are reporting MPGs of 40 and 30.  If you drive 10K mile/year (which is a lot, considering we're talking about mostly urban driving), then the Prius will use 250 gallons of gas, while the Civic will use 333.  If gas averages $5/gallon over the next decade, that's a cost difference each year of $415.  So it will take 12 years to make up the $5K initial cost difference of the vehicles.  But if you take into account that the Civic buyer could put his $5K into long-term investments, plus pays less on car insurance, then the Prius owner NEVER catches up. I invite you to make these kinds of TCO comparisons for all-electric vs. similarly-performing all-gas cars.  I think you will be disheartened. My advice to everybody is: Move close to work, if possible.  Otherwise, car-pool.  Also try to work four 10-hour days, if that's allowed.  (Saves 20% on commuting costs, pollution, greenhouse gases, etc.) Rate this comment: (Reply)

      • Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better gcrdyes on 08/04/2007 at 4:00 PM

        Posts: 1

        I love the holistic economic train of thought.  People do not take into account the full spectrum of finance when determining what is "economical".  As former member of the military I have been in the middle east and it was not fun.  So I applaud people buying expensive hybrids for environmental purposes. But what about 10 years from now?  What is going to happen to the millions of pounds of batteries?  With battery and ultracap technology evolving so quickly there is a chance that these batteries will not be recycled/refurbished.  In addition to living close to work, carpooling and telecommuting people should try biking as often as possible/practical.  It would do more for America than just decrease our dependency on oil.  Biking more often would help alleviate our burgeoning health crisis as well.  Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: Coasting and Electric Motors Still 3x Better Silacon on 08/03/2007 at 6:36 PM

    Posts: 41 Avg Rating:

    We returned over the weekend from a long drive through the mountains of New Mexico and Colorado. I applied coasting to reduce consumption in our REV4 4-Wheel Drive 2007 Toyota.  The REVA does 26 mile freeway and 18 city.  I boosted the efficiency of the ride to 35 mpg through mountains and on the freeway to 33 mpg.  Electric wins however. There is not shortage of gasoline and price per gallon is too low to stimulate movement to electrics or coasting.  I coast alone but now have a coasting habit.  Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: Electric Motors Still 3x Better sculptor on 08/09/2007 at 2:21 AM

    Posts: 8 Avg Rating:

    Note, in cold weather it is very efficient to use the "waste" heat from an internal combustion engine to heat the car. The term for this concept is co-generation.  In addition an electric car can be no more efficient than the power generation facility that produces the electricity used by the car and to claim that the total efficiency is three times that of an internal combustion engine is a gross exaggeration. Those that advocate plug-able hybrids with an efficient internal combustion engine partnered with an advanced battery, such as the one produced by Altairoano, are on the right track for the most efficient and practical vehicle. Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	GM volt integration urian1975 on 08/03/2007 at 9:19 AM
  Posts: 16 Avg Rating:	Why not integrate this into the GM volt as it uses an electric motor to drive the vehicle but utilizes a small generator to charge the batteries when they are low. if you integrate this technology into the generator you wouldnt have to worry about load change as it would be a near constant consisntent load? Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	Arthur Hanson Arthur Hanson on 08/06/2007 at 7:56 AM
  Posts: 1	Mercedes has already built and tested an engine that does this Rate this comment: (Reply)

• Improving Efficiency ksviswanathan on 08/07/2007 at 7:38 AM

  Posts: 6 Avg Rating:

  Why go to the complicated and costly HCCI engine to improve engine efficiency? Cutting a few grooves, shaving of the head to improve CR as per US Patent of Mr Somender Singh will increase mileage by 20% plus, reduce exhaust pollution and keep the engine oil cleaner for a longer period and this has been achieved in hundreds of cars. Details are available in his website www.somender-singh.com.(email: garudarad1@rediffmail.com. The cost of modification is approx.US$350 in India. please find below the engine exhaust analysis of a modified 1000cc car taken from the web: Quote Kaizer Sozay View Public Profile Send a private message to Kaizer Sozay Send email to Kaizer Sozay Find More Posts by Kaizer Sozay Add Kaizer Sozay to Your Buddy List 2nd September 2006, 19:20    #82 (permalink)  Kaizer Sozay BHPian Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bombay Blues!!! Posts: 307 View My Photo Gallery   The PUC Report!!! -------------------------------------------------- A PUC Report in a way vaildates the change in performance of the engine. I got the PUC done today on a PUC machine called ULTRA-TEC the readings are as follows (Both the readings are from the same machine at the same petrol pump) Reading ----- Today----- 1 Year Ago CO: ----- 0.326% Vol -----1.459% Vol CO2:----- 12.19%vol ------11.49% Vol HC: ----- 135PPM Vol----- 234PPM Vol O2: ----- 0.00% Vol -----3.24% Vol Lamda: ----- 0.982 -----1.113 AFR: ----- 14.43 -----16.36 I do not know what these readouts like Lambda & AFR are but every reading shows a significant Drop The Permissible limit for CO is 3% The reading now is 1/10th of that All I can gather from this is that the Engine is Much More Enviormentally Friendly. This is only possible if the combustion process is Complete & there is no Un burnt fuel being thrown out from the exhaust, Also There is a lot of water being thrown out from the tail pipe. ------------------------------------------------- Last edited by Kaizer Sozay : 2nd September 2006 at 19:25. Unquote When will the car manufacturers incorprate this modification in the cars produced by them? Such a modification during the car manufacturing stage will cost very little and benefit the car owners by lowering the running cost of their cars. Rate this comment: (Reply)

  • Re: Improving Efficiency HaPPI on 08/09/2007 at 11:31 AM

    Posts: 3

    Why one or the other?  Why not both?  For that matter, build a motor into the flywheel for a "soft hybrid".  See how it stacks up against a Sterling external-combustion engine.  We need to combine known technologies when they can synergize without sacrificing reliability.  My favorite near-term would be a plug in hybrid with a small high efficiency engine such as diesel or what is being proposed here, elec motor, plus thin film PV panels on the roof, ultra low drag and light weight design.  If my Prius can get 50 real world mpg, a vehicle like that should be capable of 70-90, perhaps?  Individuals who started with a Prius platform created a plug in hybrid and then an upgrade kit, showing Toyota it could be done and now Toyota has taken up the torch.  The same could be done to retrofit PVs onto the plug in version, or Singh the engine's head, or add a Sterling generator to the exhaust system.  I say, go for it! Rate this comment: (Reply)

• 	motor vehicle technology Jemo on 06/24/2008 at 5:06 AM
  Posts: 1	Am a trained mechanic from Kenya Polytchenic university, i would like to know more from your organistion. Am soon opening an Auto Parts shop and am considering these organisation as my main supplier. Rate this comment: (Reply)