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Debating Immortality

Aubrey de Grey believes we can live forever. Gerontologist Richard Miller at the University of Michigan begs to differ.

By Richard Miller

Tuesday, November 29, 2005

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In March 2005, we published "Do You Want to Live Forever?," a cover story by renowned physician and writer Sherwin Nuland that took a deeply skeptical view of the claims of Aubrey de Grey, a theoretical biologist at the University of Cambridge who believes that human aging can be "fixed." The story elicited outrage not just from de Grey's many partisans, but also from many working biogerontologists who told us we were nuts to waste ink criticizing de Grey's theories. What follows is a letter to de Grey by Richard Miller, a professor of pathology at the University of Michigan and a well-known biogerontologist. Tomorrow, we'll post de Grey's response to his letter. -- Editors.


Wednesday, October 12, 2005

Jason Pontin
Editor in chief and publisher, Technology Review

Dear Jason:

My colleagues have called to my attention the excited fascination with which Technology Review has been treating Dr. Aubrey de Grey's program to conquer aging. As you know, the Strategies for Engineered Negligible Senescence (SENS) program delineates seven problems that from Dr. de Grey's perspective are the key components of aging, and suggests that they can be solved by a combination of stem-cell therapy, senescence-marker tagged toxins, allotypic mt-coded proteins, IL-7, total telomerase deletion, genetically engineered hormone-secreting muscle cells, and phenacyldimethylthiazolium chloride.

De Grey has challenged gerontologists to debate the merits of the SENS program, and has expressed his opinion that we are now at or near a historical "cusp"; those born after the cusp will be able to stay alive and youthful by adherence to the SENS strategy.

Although de Grey's assertions have enjoyed wide circulation in the lay press, at scientific meetings, and in your own journal, it is fair to say that many experienced gerontologists still remain somewhat skeptical about his claims.

Nonetheless, his success in developing such a well-regarded plan to solve the aging problem has prompted me to ask for his help on a similarly complex technological challenge. Alas, I have lost Aubrey's phone number, and so I was hoping that Technology Review might be willing to publish this open letter to him, along with these introductory remarks, as a public service to those of us who look forward to hearing his insights into problems of this kind.

Best regards,
Richard Miller, MD, PhD, Professor of Pathology, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI

============================================

Dear Aubrey:

I saw you on TV the other day, and was hoping that now that the aging problem has been solved, you might have time to help me in my publicity campaign to solve a similar engineering challenge, one that has been too long ignored by the ultra-conservative, fraidy-cat mainstream scientific community: the problem of producing flying pigs.

A theoretical analysis of the problem, using the fastest available modern computers, shows that there are a mere seven reasons why pigs cannot, at present, fly:

1. They do not have wings.

2. They are too heavy to get off the ground.

3. The so-called "law" of gravity.

4. They cannot climb trees.

5. Hair, instead of feathers.

6. They do not wish to fly.

7. They do not tweet.

Although I have been too busy in my day-job to find time to work in a laboratory, I have been able to show clearly that these problems can be solved, using an approach I call Plan for Engineered Porcine Aviation, or PEPA.

Comments

  • Flying Pigs
    It would be very interesting if by some modifications of pigs cells pigs can be develop to fly.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Paul K. Tan)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
    • Flying Fockers
      Aw shucks, I think youve got it if you cant find a fundamental flaw in the approach, just make fun of it. Maybe it will go away.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Diogenes)
      11/29/2005
      Posts:1
    • Why not address the issues raised by De Grey?
      I can start sympathising with Aubrey De Greys frustration at the scientific establishment. When they take five minutes to look out of their beakers its to make fun of him and sidestep any debate. If the answers to SENS arguments were anything like what is written here, we wouldnt be having this conversation in the first place. Just be an adult and refute scientifically (or even logically!?) Richards article is (I admit) funny but it doesnt help any of us get to the bottom of this, so the frustration quickly overtakes any smiles you might get.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Jota)
      11/29/2005
      Posts:1
    • Richard - we need to talk
      Richard, perhaps without realizing it you have exemplified the essence of the SENS &quotengineering&quot approach to problem solving - particularly with your innovative suggestion of Hox manipulation. After all, geneticists have for years now been able to get flies to grow eyes on their legs, and legs where their antennae should be. Theoretically, given sufficient resources one could induce the development of rudimentary wings in mammals using a similar approach. You sound like you have the lateral minded problem solving skills needed for investigating what is perceived as intractable by most. We need to talk.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Harold Brenner)
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
    • Futurology Not Science
      de Greys papers are a depressing combination of futurology and self-promotion. The flying pig parable is spot on. Even the crummy &quotcuring cancer&quot paper looks like a test-run for SENS. It describes &quotWILT&quot a potential miracle cure for cancer. de Greys trick is one of constant reification. He publishes some utterly implausible attention grabbing idea, slaps a stupid acronym on it, and then invents a foundation in order to pretend it is something more than a daydream.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Rufus )
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
    • Flying Fockers
      Aw shucks, I think youve got it if you cant find a fundamental flaw in the approach, just make fun of it. Maybe it will go away.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Diogenes)
      11/29/2005
      Posts:1
    • Why not address the issues raised by De Grey?
      I can start sympathising with Aubrey De Greys frustration at the scientific establishment. When they take five minutes to look out of their beakers its to make fun of him and sidestep any debate. If the answers to SENS arguments were anything like what is written here, we wouldnt be having this conversation in the first place. Just be an adult and refute scientifically (or even logically!?) Richards article is (I admit) funny but it doesnt help any of us get to the bottom of this, so the frustration quickly overtakes any smiles you might get.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Jota)
      11/29/2005
      Posts:1
    • Richard - we need to talk
      Richard, perhaps without realizing it you have exemplified the essence of the SENS &quotengineering&quot approach to problem solving - particularly with your innovative suggestion of Hox manipulation. After all, geneticists have for years now been able to get flies to grow eyes on their legs, and legs where their antennae should be. Theoretically, given sufficient resources one could induce the development of rudimentary wings in mammals using a similar approach. You sound like you have the lateral minded problem solving skills needed for investigating what is perceived as intractable by most. We need to talk.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Harold Brenner)
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
    • Futurology Not Science
      de Greys papers are a depressing combination of futurology and self-promotion. The flying pig parable is spot on. Even the crummy &quotcuring cancer&quot paper looks like a test-run for SENS. It describes &quotWILT&quot a potential miracle cure for cancer. de Greys trick is one of constant reification. He publishes some utterly implausible attention grabbing idea, slaps a stupid acronym on it, and then invents a foundation in order to pretend it is something more than a daydream.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Rufus )
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
  • Flying Pigs
    This is really funny stuff - exactly the type of satire we used to do in high school when we we screwing around in the back of the biology room.

    mmmm.....

    Those guys were fun to clown around with but I dont think I would take thier opinions of biology too seriously.

    This kind of thing may be amusing, but really does nothing to help my understanding, as an ignorant lay person, of the relevant issues.

    I read Technology Review to help me understand the issues. I read the Onion for humor and satire. This article would be better there.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (William Thomas)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
    • Sad day for Technology Review
      when they need to publish tripe like this.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (John)
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
    • Flying Pigs
      This article is a complete waste of space.  I agree with Mr. Thomas.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Randy Snow)
      12/13/2005
      Posts:1
    • Sad day for Technology Review
      when they need to publish tripe like this.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (John)
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
    • Flying Pigs
      This article is a complete waste of space.  I agree with Mr. Thomas.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Randy Snow)
      12/13/2005
      Posts:1
  • Failure
    When distinguisced scientists need to satire to discredit someone else idea, I suppose is because they have no other arguments.
    If they have something scientific, I would suppose they will accept the Challenge and try to win the 20.000 $ of the Challenge.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Mirco Romanato)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
    • Funny, but pointless... frustrated that it was even printed.
      There really isnt any point to this letter. Yes, the content is funny, but it doesnt do what it set out to do... debate Dr. Grey. I support Dr. Grey in his research, whether it concludes that immortality is possible or not at least its progress.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Rob Brunner)
      11/29/2005
      Posts:1
    • Too much?
      I take it that the point was that the idea of SENS was too outlandish to even debate?  I can see how that might be true, but maybe an indication regarding how much work would be required to perform one of the steps of SENS, and then the opportunity cost of such an activity.  For example.
      Dr. Miller: grant wings using stem cells.
      Noel: Too expensive, and too much work.  Create a bird-pig hybrid (to ensure no immune respose) and graft the wings to the pig.  Now its just a matter of nerves and muscle.
      Dr. Miller: reduce cell size to reduce weight
      Noel: Increase bouyancy by implanting hydrogen-generating bacteria in a skin sac, to inflant the pigs back.

      Etc.  Give solutions, not mocking.  Tell us what the scientists are doing instead.
      PS: I didnt include opportunity cost.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Noel)
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
    • De Greys Paradigm Shift
      I found this article today, so thats why the late comment.

      IMHO, whats more important about De Greys work is not necessarily whether he identified all the causes of aging and offered realistic cures for them. What is important is that there has been a radical new way of thought about the process of aging. It used to be &quotsomething natural&quot that &quotjust happened&quot to &quoteveryone&quot. Now its something that is considered a disease like cancer or aids that needs to be fixed.

      The problem appears to be that just a few small groups work on this (as compared to other common mortal diseases). Why? Who would have a problem with doubled, tripled, quadrupled life spans? A couple of very powerful groups come to mind...
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Marco)
      12/06/2005
      Posts:1
    • Funny, but pointless... frustrated that it was even printed.
      There really isnt any point to this letter. Yes, the content is funny, but it doesnt do what it set out to do... debate Dr. Grey. I support Dr. Grey in his research, whether it concludes that immortality is possible or not at least its progress.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Rob Brunner)
      11/29/2005
      Posts:1
    • Too much?
      I take it that the point was that the idea of SENS was too outlandish to even debate?  I can see how that might be true, but maybe an indication regarding how much work would be required to perform one of the steps of SENS, and then the opportunity cost of such an activity.  For example.
      Dr. Miller: grant wings using stem cells.
      Noel: Too expensive, and too much work.  Create a bird-pig hybrid (to ensure no immune respose) and graft the wings to the pig.  Now its just a matter of nerves and muscle.
      Dr. Miller: reduce cell size to reduce weight
      Noel: Increase bouyancy by implanting hydrogen-generating bacteria in a skin sac, to inflant the pigs back.

      Etc.  Give solutions, not mocking.  Tell us what the scientists are doing instead.
      PS: I didnt include opportunity cost.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Noel)
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
    • De Greys Paradigm Shift
      I found this article today, so thats why the late comment.

      IMHO, whats more important about De Greys work is not necessarily whether he identified all the causes of aging and offered realistic cures for them. What is important is that there has been a radical new way of thought about the process of aging. It used to be &quotsomething natural&quot that &quotjust happened&quot to &quoteveryone&quot. Now its something that is considered a disease like cancer or aids that needs to be fixed.

      The problem appears to be that just a few small groups work on this (as compared to other common mortal diseases). Why? Who would have a problem with doubled, tripled, quadrupled life spans? A couple of very powerful groups come to mind...
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Marco)
      12/06/2005
      Posts:1
  • Of course De Gray is wrong
    For the same reason Nicolaus Copernicus was wrong after all everyone can see the sun come up in the east and set in the west there for it must revolve around the earth and if there is any doubt all of the scientific community will back me on this.... oh if my arguement was given in 1500.  Perhaps De Grey is wrong and perhaps he just hasnt been proven right yet.  Either way this was not a debate or a refutation of his ideas.  Rather it was a childish attempt to smear his work so as not to have to answer it.  So if he is right or if he is wrong, either way youve failed to provide anything of use beyond a few moments entertainment.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Vlad)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • When pigs flew
    Leave it to a biogerontologist to only see the problem from the standpoint of his hammer. We need more nuts to put the screws on those whod bolt from bioengineered repair.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Dave)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
    • Wasted Ink
      The flaw that this article illuminates has nothing to do with De Greys theory and much to do with the character of Richard Miller.

      Perhaps, the ink was actually wasted when Tech Review posted this flimsy rebuttal... Oh, but wait! This isnt even paper. So really, hes just wasting our time.

      If De Greys argument is flawed, thats fine. He should provide a counterpoint. Put up, or shut up. Dont patronize De Grey and the readers with nonsense that claims to be a valid view.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (J.R. Psykira)
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
    • Wasted Ink
      The flaw that this article illuminates has nothing to do with De Greys theory and much to do with the character of Richard Miller.

      Perhaps, the ink was actually wasted when Tech Review posted this flimsy rebuttal... Oh, but wait! This isnt even paper. So really, hes just wasting our time.

      If De Greys argument is flawed, thats fine. He should provide a counterpoint. Put up, or shut up. Dont patronize De Grey and the readers with nonsense that claims to be a valid view.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (J.R. Psykira)
      11/30/2005
      Posts:1
  • thats it?
    That is all he has to say about De Grays theory/plan? Thats it? No meaningful questions? Comments? Concerns? Just sarcasm, ridicule and pointless nonsesne!

    While I disagree with some of De Greys points that this article would get published when there are serious questions is a black eye to Tech Review.

    If you dont or wont ask intelligent questions maybe it would be better to stay quiet. How about a discussion point by point? Is that too hard or too much work for Tech Review?

    We may never achive immortality but until we try we will never do it either.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Tim)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • Is that a rebuttal?
    Im surprised you even bothered to publish this foolish attempt at a rebuttal. Dr De Grays argument is receiving serious attention. There are a lot of people interested in what he has to say.  If the best response of the scientific community is is a silly prank, then why the hell are we funding these guys so much of the taxpayers dollars? Maybe its time to start voting Republican.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Damian Crowe)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • identifyed flying objects
    There is a much simpler solution to your problem. Actually my 2 year old son has made this discovery. It is called Pig Volleyball. Available in you favorite toy store. You just kick it hard and it bounces and flyes over the net. My two year old can make them fly, so perhaps you also be able to reproduce it.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Nic)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • Sad
    It has been nine months since the article by Aubrey de Grey and that is the best that can be done?
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Matt)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
    • Debating Immortality
      Was Richard Millers article intended to be humor? Oops ... Dont quick your day job, Rich. It wasnt? Oops ... there goes the day job also ...
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (J Sardina)
      11/29/2005
      Posts:1
      • Finally -some intellectual spin on when pigs can fly!
        All this clatter about two elite-type intellectuals having some fun. Who are the stuffed shirts here? Even if the distinguished authors are slicing &amp dicing with their sarcasm, what’s wrong with Tech Review publishing it? 
        Sounds like some people are taking themselves and the authors too seriously.
        Read it for what it is . . . two opinionated intellectuals with opposing positions applying their own sense of humor to a common rhetorically “negative” position – when pigs fly!
        Rate this comment: 12345
        Guest (Jerry)
        11/30/2005
        Posts:1
      • Finally -some intellectual spin on when pigs can fly!
        All this clatter about two elite-type intellectuals having some fun. Who are the stuffed shirts here? Even if the distinguished authors are slicing &amp dicing with their sarcasm, what’s wrong with Tech Review publishing it? 
        Sounds like some people are taking themselves and the authors too seriously.
        Read it for what it is . . . two opinionated intellectuals with opposing positions applying their own sense of humor to a common rhetorically “negative” position – when pigs fly!
        Rate this comment: 12345
        Guest (Jerry)
        11/30/2005
        Posts:1
      • Finally -some intellectual spin on when pigs can fly!
        All this clatter about two elite-type intellectuals having some fun. Who are the stuffed shirts here? Even if the distinguished authors are slicing &amp dicing with their sarcasm, what’s wrong with Tech Review publishing it? 
        Sounds like some people are taking themselves and the authors too seriously.
        Read it for what it is . . . two opinionated intellectuals with opposing positions applying their own sense of humor to a common rhetorically “negative” position – when pigs fly!
        Rate this comment: 12345
        Guest (Jerry)
        11/30/2005
        Posts:1
    • Debating Immortality
      Was Richard Millers article intended to be humor? Oops ... Dont quick your day job, Rich. It wasnt? Oops ... there goes the day job also ...
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (J Sardina)
      11/29/2005
      Posts:1
  • What?
    I get that the idea is that SENS is seen to be too outrageous to consider, thats what the point is here.  Why not list the difficulty in performing one of the steps of SENS, to show how out to lunch it is?
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Noel)
    12/01/2005
    Posts:1
    • Aw, c'mon
      The same sort of ridicule could be applied to any technological development in history. It would be nice for us laymen if the skeptics would describe the actual difficulties they see, instead of just spewing rhetoric. But wait, then they would be doing actual science. It's more fun to condescend and impress people with your scientific authority.
      Rate this comment: 12345
      Guest (Dennis)
      01/13/2006
      Posts:1
  • What an embarrasing non-starter
    Whether de Grey is on to something or not, Millers  very clever open letter is just an embarrasment. Its not even funny.

    Cant Miller see what this sort of thing is fuelling?

    mw
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (mouthwatering)
    12/06/2005
    Posts:1
  • Flying Pigs
    It would be very interesting if by some modifications of pigs cells pigs can be develop to fly.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Paul K. Tan)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • Flying Pigs
    This is really funny stuff - exactly the type of satire we used to do in high school when we we screwing around in the back of the biology room.

    mmmm.....

    Those guys were fun to clown around with but I dont think I would take thier opinions of biology too seriously.

    This kind of thing may be amusing, but really does nothing to help my understanding, as an ignorant lay person, of the relevant issues.

    I read Technology Review to help me understand the issues. I read the Onion for humor and satire. This article would be better there.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (William Thomas)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • Failure
    When distinguisced scientists need to satire to discredit someone else idea, I suppose is because they have no other arguments.
    If they have something scientific, I would suppose they will accept the Challenge and try to win the 20.000 $ of the Challenge.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Mirco Romanato)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • Of course De Gray is wrong
    For the same reason Nicolaus Copernicus was wrong after all everyone can see the sun come up in the east and set in the west there for it must revolve around the earth and if there is any doubt all of the scientific community will back me on this.... oh if my arguement was given in 1500.  Perhaps De Grey is wrong and perhaps he just hasnt been proven right yet.  Either way this was not a debate or a refutation of his ideas.  Rather it was a childish attempt to smear his work so as not to have to answer it.  So if he is right or if he is wrong, either way youve failed to provide anything of use beyond a few moments entertainment.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Vlad)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • When pigs flew
    Leave it to a biogerontologist to only see the problem from the standpoint of his hammer. We need more nuts to put the screws on those whod bolt from bioengineered repair.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Dave)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • thats it?
    That is all he has to say about De Grays theory/plan? Thats it? No meaningful questions? Comments? Concerns? Just sarcasm, ridicule and pointless nonsesne!

    While I disagree with some of De Greys points that this article would get published when there are serious questions is a black eye to Tech Review.

    If you dont or wont ask intelligent questions maybe it would be better to stay quiet. How about a discussion point by point? Is that too hard or too much work for Tech Review?

    We may never achive immortality but until we try we will never do it either.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Tim)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • Is that a rebuttal?
    Im surprised you even bothered to publish this foolish attempt at a rebuttal. Dr De Grays argument is receiving serious attention. There are a lot of people interested in what he has to say.  If the best response of the scientific community is is a silly prank, then why the hell are we funding these guys so much of the taxpayers dollars? Maybe its time to start voting Republican.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Damian Crowe)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • identifyed flying objects
    There is a much simpler solution to your problem. Actually my 2 year old son has made this discovery. It is called Pig Volleyball. Available in you favorite toy store. You just kick it hard and it bounces and flyes over the net. My two year old can make them fly, so perhaps you also be able to reproduce it.
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Nic)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • Sad
    It has been nine months since the article by Aubrey de Grey and that is the best that can be done?
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Matt)
    11/29/2005
    Posts:1
  • What?
    I get that the idea is that SENS is seen to be too outrageous to consider, thats what the point is here.  Why not list the difficulty in performing one of the steps of SENS, to show how out to lunch it is?
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (Noel)
    12/01/2005
    Posts:1
  • What an embarrasing non-starter
    Whether de Grey is on to something or not, Millers  very clever open letter is just an embarrasment. Its not even funny.

    Cant Miller see what this sort of thing is fuelling?

    mw
    Rate this comment: 12345
    Guest (mouthwatering)
    12/06/2005
    Posts:1
  • Aubrey de Grey is much better than Richard Miller
    ...and this article is my proof
    Rate this comment: 12345

    Nabukadnezar
    04/03/2007
    Posts:4
    Avg Rating:
    5/5
  • History repeats itself
    I may be a little late on reviewing this article but even if De grey does not have the support of the scientific community it does not mean that his ideas should be subjected to this kind of scrutiny.  Even if his ideas are wrong at least he is trying and also this is not the first time a great idea has suffered ridicule.

    The abolishment of pain in surgery is a chimera. It is absurd to go on seeking it. . . . Knife and pain are two words in surgery that must forever be associated in the consciousness of the patient.
    - Dr. Alfred Velpeau (1839) French surgeon

    Men might as well project a voyage to the Moon as attempt to employ steam navigation against the stormy North Atlantic Ocean.
    - Dr. Dionysus Lardner (1838) Professor of Natural Philosophy and Astronomy, University College, London

    Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.
    - Lord Kelvin, ca. 1895, British mathematician and physicist

    Well informed people know it is impossible to transmit the voice over wires and that were it possible to do so, the thing would be of no practical value.
    - Editorial in the Boston Post (1865)
    Rate this comment: 12345

    madella1
    08/14/2007
    Posts:1
  • Aubrey de Grey article in WIRED!
    If you liked this article, you will love the one just released on WIRED.com.  Here's an audio version of the article if you want to listen to it while paying bills, playing Wii, or coming up with arguments against Regenerative Medicine.  By the way, did that guy ever show any progress on the Flying Pig problem?  Aubrey and the Methuselah Foundation are making tremendous strides in their work to bringing the "Aging as disease" meme to the world, and making in-roads in their work on the M-prize.

    Anyway, heres that wired article:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSk9_ZeciEk

    Enjoy!
    Rate this comment: 12345

    HighBar
    06/29/2008
    Posts:1

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